Fundamental Incentive Brainstorming

[tobapopalos]

hopefully not with a totally incomprehensible way of working it out, a la the old Alliance points

That was my initial worry. It would have to be something we all agree on and accept, rather than the opaque, confusing, mess which was alliance points.

 

[Dax]

I concur. Good call, Toby.

 

[tobapopalos]

I like, very much.

Could, or should, it be tied into other game mechanics in any way? I mean, the reason valuation rules and effectiveness is a side show, is that valuation directly impacts on other stats and mechanics.

I'm hoping we change effectiveness and h/f, and if by some miracle this idea is implemented, I think they should all be tied together, rather than just a random mish-mash of seperate rankings. I think score should still be the main contributor to rank, but maybe effectiveness and h/f could add smaller amounts to your ranking points.

Like I said, I only just thought of this, so I haven't got all the answers

 

[Davs]

I like, very much.

Could, or should, it be tied into other game mechanics in any way? I mean, the reason valuation rules and effectiveness is a side show, is that valuation directly impacts on other stats and mechanics.

I'm hoping we change effectiveness and h/f, and if by some miracle this idea is implemented, I think they should all be tied together, rather than just a random mish-mash of seperate rankings. I think score should still be the main contributor to rank, but maybe effectiveness and h/f could add smaller amounts to your ranking points.

Like I said, I only just thought of this, so I haven't got all the answers

Perhaps give stats a contribution to it as well? Nothing major as, let's be honest, no one really gives a damn about stats, but it would be nice to have the stats make a slightly larger impact on how players go through a round, rather than just giving some people a little trophy icon next to their name in portal...

 

[tobapopalos]

Half the stats are awarded for failing horribly. I don't think that should increase rank.

 

[Davs]

Half the stats are awarded for failing horribly. I don't think that should increase rank.

fair enough that having the most staff killed shouldn't boost your score, but what about being the top land stealer or the top briber? The stats that genuinely are achievements should have some positive impact imo

 

[willymchilybily]

point 1
I think tobys idea of score and rank being different. and being consistent for the amount of time you are high ranked is good..

but i raise the point is it purely rank based over time?....for example if you are rank 1 for the first week, then die and drop down and sit at rank 2 for another week. and rank 2 was vice versa, he was rank 2 for a week then pinched rank 1......

do you both then become equal ranked....or does score have some effect. as such you were rank 1 but your score through the first week is about a tenth of what it is during the second week. and this weighting to the rank puts you firmly at 2nd place....this means the start is less important than th end.....

also time.. do you factor in time at that rank. if you were to restart mid round. and get a score rank equivalent of being rank 1. would the person who had stayed at a score rank of 2 all the time actually beat you in the rankings?
------------------------------------
point 2
the biggest problem with insurance being high from my experience is although the average jo may not care about winning those that do care about winning will take several times longer to win. or bash several times harder. if you only killed rank 2 by 10% each time due to high insurance. how would you ensure you win. wouldnt this make the game entirely land orientated? or do we make declaring war more viable -attractive?...high insurance did lead to burn out because people still felt they had a chance to win because they didnt die much, and othrs felt they hadnt won. so they would keep going endlessly sending attacks/defence. it was a negative effect to my memory...be sure to adress this issue please

I prefer polos suggestions also about scaling this ****. i cba to find the thread but insurance scaled to range the incoming is attacking, seems more reasonable. still allows rock scissor paper fun and the ability to kill.

 

[tobapopalos]

point 1
I think tobys idea of score and rank being different. and being consistent for the amount of time you are high ranked is good..

but i raise the point is it purely rank based over time?....for example if you are rank 1 for the first week, then die and drop down and sit at rank 2 for another week. and rank 2 was vice versa, he was rank 2 for a week then pinched rank 1......

do you both then become equal ranked....or does score have some effect. as such you were rank 1 but your score through the first week is about a tenth of what it is during the second week. and this weighting to the rank puts you firmly at 2nd place....this means the start is less important than th end.....

also time.. do you factor in time at that rank. if you were to restart mid round. and get a score rank equivalent of being rank 1. would the person who had stayed at a score rank of 2 all the time actually beat you in the rankings?

Good question. This isn't something I thought about when making the suggestion. I'd say time > score. If you were rank 1 for the first week that is the achievement, not having a big score. The actual amount of score increases for everyone over the course of the round so it doesn't have much relevance imo.

I think the guy who has played all round with his ID should be favoured over the restarter. Just look at Martin this round as an example. He restarted as CGs a couple of weeks ago and flakwhored to rank 1, but that doesn't mean he has been the "best" player (no offence, Martin ).

 

[willymchilybily]

http://www.bushtarion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4574

This was polos suggestion I liked and mentioned previously. The ratios and values and system maybe not so much but the concept could be simplified/perfected.

This coupled with the thread by web victim summarising the simple useful improvements at the top of the suggestions thread
http://www.bushtarion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5818

I would also like to add a suggestion I can't find. But if a player leaves an alliance, his threads aren't auto deleted.

Finally the ability to friendly kick someone from an alliance. Whereby they can't attack the alliance members and the alliance members can't attack them for x ticks.this is in addition not as an alternative to regular kick.

 

[willymchilybily]

Every time i play briber I want this:

A setting in ID settings to show an additional box, with a running total of the units you are sending to a target as you fill in the boxes on the military page.

 

[jamesNchina]

Some thoughts based upon
a) being a nub to the game
b) a complete retard about navigating through/playing computer games
c) having dyslexia with numbers making mathematical equations a frustrating nightmare (proficient mathematics is a hallmark of the skilled player on bush
d) an old man who dearly loves this game but becoming increasingly frustrated with it to the point of quitting
IMO Toby's idea is by far the best I have yet heard in 6 rounds of playing.

My reasoning; As you all know I have been extremely active playing and because of the above stated handicaps it is always a major struggle to get anywhere with regards to gaining rank and filled with 'fails' far out weighing success stories. But TBH it is the struggle and the challenge that keeps me coming back.
What frustrates me to the point of saying screw this and not playing or wanting to play anymore is that after spending all the time, effort and making a fair amount of gain that gives me a feeling of 'pride' of having rose to a competitive level of the really pro players here is thus; In one fell swoop of being bashed/zero'd by several huge players half way or 3/4 of the way through the round throws all that effort/time right in the shitcan with not enough time to get it back with my uber nub 'fail' tactics.
Toby's idea would immediately cure this rage quit/frustrate quit feeling. It doesn't throw away the mechanics of being zero'd and needing to struggle/work hard to continue to rise in rank but it doesn't destroy the effort one has thus put into the game.

I know different insurance mechanics have been discussed to 'cure' this problem but don't like those ideas because it would actually take away the challenge/struggle to gain rank through battle and tactics. IMO heightened insurance is kind of like a difficulty setting on a console game (not sure that is the correct vernacular for it.. uh psp games) and places it on easy, great maybe the first time through to get acquainted with a game but after that just plain boring.

Anyways those are some thoughts coming from a noob rapidly becoming another new guy who stopped playing. Feel free to bash it because you (erroneously) think I am retarded or a wussy or whatever but they are the feelings/thoughts coming from a new player which isn't really heard here.

 

[jamesNchina]

Another thought I have is in regards to the activity level required to actually get anywhere in rank or to be part of a FTW group.
One reason that I have never been and will never be on a FTW alliance is due to the contact-ability required for the alliance to be able to achieve high ranking.
I also feel that activity level is often off putting to prospective new players who because of RL commitments/requirements cannot put in huge amounts of time each day needed for the most part to get anywhere.

However I don't think a game mechanic that allows an inactive player to easily stay effective is in anyway fair to the active player. I am assuming this is the reasoning for reduced seed production when in sleep mode.

While IMO throwing away sleep mode may be a bad idea due to some players needing to be away for an extended amount of time. The need for some kind of mechanic that allows people to get at least 8 hours undisturbed sleep per day without causing a reduced growth ability is needed.

TBH I have absolutely no idea what that game mechanic would be but feel it is something that should be thought out by you guys with much more ability and experience.

Sleep mode I guess takes care of that problem for most people but at the same time I have heard many sensible opinions of how using sleep mode actually is crap to helping the 'Alliance'. Works great for the individual who only considers their own survival but not so great for the team.

I'm sure any mechanic can and probably will be abused by some, however the need for something that allows the casual player to be part of a competitive 'social' group without causing harm to the players health/RL commitments is necessary. (yes I said health. if you don't think that is even remotely a concern, please do a tiny bit of research into sleep deprivation)

Anyhow another idea which I think is needed. I am only trying to think of the things that would help improve my enjoyment of the game. I can't help but feel that I am at least close to being an average cross section of prospective new players.

 

[jamesNchina]

A third and probably final idea or suggestion aimed at trying to improve the game and appeal to greater masses.
I think it was Dax who mentioned his casual research to offer some ideas and suggestions for improvement of Bush. I agree with another post that it is of a such a small cross section that accuracy is questionable, however completely disagree that it is so small that it is totally irrelevant and of no consequence to forming ideas that would increase the player base.

Most of the opinions I have read here on the forums come from the personal experience/feelings of a very small group of shall we say highly experienced bush players and avid gamers. The fact that they come from extremely experienced Bush players makes their opinions extremely valuable and should be considered a control group. However, they too are an extremely small cross section of the current player base and the accuracy of those opinions may not be extremely accurate. (damn I seem to extremely like that word extremely )

Any new start up business that's wants a fair chance at being successful really needs a large market analysis for their product or service. And while this is not a new start up we are trying to revamp it some making it "new and improved". Also it IS new to Magpie.

While any opinion or market research can generate statistics which could be twisted or arranged to validate a myriad of opposing viewpoints, I do feel it is something that is absolutely needed to further the discussion of the already proposed fixes/changes to bush and absolutely should be done prior to actually putting those ideas into action. (love that word absolutely and being absolutely redundant ... maybe I should head up a new branch in my business - The Dept. of Redundancy Dept. )

My idea is to put in place some kind of in-game survey and vote procedure. I say in-game because obviously this forum is not going to generate any where near a complete cross section (please refer to Calm down thread for reasons Good, Bad and Ugly for this to be true).

Let's hear from those folks thus far not vocal at all in; why do you play Bush, what don't you don't like about Bush, what will keep you playing Bush, how many hours a day do you spend playing Bush, Toby has this idea ..... how would you rate it to improve your satisfaction with bush etc.

We need, Magpie needs the statistical opinions/values/ideas from a far greater section of people than what we currently have. Right now we are only thinking out ideas based upon guesses of what other people enjoy. Although that guess work may be highly, extremely, absolutely, and redundantly accurate it is still merely opinionated guess work.

There damn it, I removed my rose tinted glasses and posted my ideas without a bit of fear, care or hesitation that I may be flamed, ridiculed, called names, insulted, or silly gif'd to oblivion... give it your best shot Mofos

 

[Coruba]

Gee James - where the hell did all that come from - worth the read once I got over the shock of it

 

[jamesNchina]

Gee James - where the hell did all that come from - worth the read once I got over the shock of it

48 hours of sleep mode gave me a bit enough of time to do a lot of editing before posting

 

[Garrett2]

tbh, magpie needs to take their own direction with the game. no one here is going to save the game or bring in more players. no one is going to have the 'winning' suggestion(s).

why? because it would have already happened. if it didn't happen, but you/they/we had the potential - shame on all of you/us for not doing it already.

what's behind a thriving community? admin with a presence and a will to make things happen.

Updates, for good/bad. whether they were suggested by who is left or not, it matters not. What will matter is that there is active admin. not a singular mod on a crusade for all that is (in their mind) right. not people who suggest things, nor the people who poke holes in said things as well as trying to silence those who see flaws and dare to speak about them.

if magpie makes a mad dash to put into place a bunch of suggestions, then they will have lost a chance to make their mark on the game. magpie should bring the noise and announce what they are looking for when/if they are ready. until then it's all speculation and no one really knows if anyone worthwhile (i.e. person(s) able to do anything about it) is reading this subforum.

This post is about realism. I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but it's how I see the situation. Everyone is free to post as they will within the rules bar over aggressive modding. However, be prepared for criticism and/or praise should you venture a post.

 

[flameharvester]

Well said garrett, I would add that in my opinion the suggestions can only help, even if none are inputted it keeps some interest and life in the forums, good for us and for those who may join the forums in the future.

Only reason I won't plus 1 you garrett is the subtle digs at DA, not that you care .

+1 to DA if he just doesn't reply.

 

[Max]

Some interesting thoughts here James - here are a few of my own to help continue the discussion on a few of these points:

I know different insurance mechanics have been discussed to 'cure' this problem but don't like those ideas because it would actually take away the challenge/struggle to gain rank through battle and tactics...

... The need for some kind of mechanic that allows people to get at least 8 hours undisturbed sleep per day without causing a reduced growth ability is needed...

... TBH I have absolutely no idea what that game mechanic would be but feel it is something that should be thought out by you guys with much more ability and experience.

I think you've got the right point there - any new mechanic or rank has to preserve, or even promote, the ability to gain or keep rank through battle and tactics, rather than perfect sleep mode preservation or contactability.

However, I do think Polo's idea for an adapted sleep mode is absolutely ingenious. I hate to keep banging on about it, but I honestly think it could go a long way to solving your problems in the game James. You asked for a new game mechanic, and he came up with one already just for you!!!

http://www.bushtarion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2270

It probably needs one or two more iterations and attempts to fool proof it from abuse, but on the whole, it's an incredibly sound idea.

My idea is to put in place some kind of in-game survey and vote procedure.

What an interesting idea! I really like it - could help to quickly gauge responses to proposed suggestions on mass. A lot of people don't bother with the forums as you rightly pointed out. I think the best questions would be simple radio button voting ones, maybe incorporated into the "messages from admin" part of the overview, that would only take 10 seconds to do. People are a bit cba when it comes to "take 10 minutes to fill out our survey please", but a quick voting button already on the page is terrific

 

[jamesNchina]

true that - and if that 10 second radio button were to change frequently - would be able to generate a full survey in no time

 

[Garrett2]

Well said garrett, I would add that in my opinion the suggestions can only help, even if none are inputted it keeps some interest and life in the forums, good for us and for those who may join the forums in the future.

Only reason I won't plus 1 you garrett is the subtle digs at DA, not that you care .

+1 to DA if he just doesn't reply.

if i wanted to dig at him, i'd use his name. i simply was describing the current atmosphere.

true that - and if that 10 second radio button were to change frequently - would be able to generate a full survey in no time

i feel that a survey would do the game more harm than good until (if) the playerbase is bigger... otherwise it's a survey for the last remaining members to make the game for the last remaining members.