A Tad Better Imo

Younge

Planter
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
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33
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Re: A Tad Better Imo

Do you people ever stop complaining?

I have not played nor logged in for weeks and decide to sign up and click on the alliance page and i see 25 alliances?
At last! If i close my eyes i may even think its age 1/2 again.

Let the spying, back stabbing and raping commence!

On paper it may seem like lots of solo quit? but it was ether solos quit or alliance based players quit... this was always an alliance game in my opinion and i am glad to see many alliance based changes for next round!

You can't please everyone but i will say lets wait and see what the next age brings before we all start complaining yeah?
 

DarkSider

Tree Surgeon
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Dec 14, 2007
Messages
796
Re: A Tad Better Imo

* 952 IDs have been active in this world in the last week.

From those only 766 can be arsed to login every day

* 766 IDs have been active in this world in the last 24 hours.

And even from those 766 just 574 players sent over 3 mobs to defend at any time this round.

(my personal stat) Total friendly mobs launched: 3 574

If almost half the players active last week could send at least 3 defending mobs at any time this whole round (20 days) it's quite obvious to me the forcing into alliances while apparently succesfull (more alliances) was far from a pleasant experience for many players. I'm even curious how many actually sent over 30 defensive mobs which let's say would be a decent number for an inactive member.
 

Deloitte

Pruner
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Dec 14, 2007
Messages
67
Re: A Tad Better Imo

As this is my first time truly being allied, I have a new found respect for those that sit at the bottom of the "ally" food chain. It sucks to be someone's land farm and have your army zero'd on a daily basis. And in the end...if they can stick it out after what the others have wrought, then they are more deserving of the term allied imo.
 

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
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Re: A Tad Better Imo

DS: I think your idealism is very very wrong.
First of all it is miniround, and I bet a lot of people have decided not to play this round, or to play very inactively. So jumping to such conclusions are not actually showing that much. Actually I was expecting numbers to grow even more for this round and I am pretty surprised of the number of people playing.

Another thing is very very simple. People were pushed to play as solos. Now they suddenly have been moved to play in alliances. Long time ago when this game was alliance based people didnt know of anything else. Playing in alliance or getting killed were your options. Now people see that they are getting killed because of Azzer and these changes. Changing the course of the game is not that simple. It will take some rounds before affects of such change will recover. So please dont paint the devils on the wall if there is no reason for it.

Thank you.
 

WildDisease

Pruner
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
62
Re: A Tad Better Imo

DarkSider said:
* 952 IDs have been active in this world in the last week.

From those only 766 can be arsed to login every day

* 766 IDs have been active in this world in the last 24 hours.

And even from those 766 just 574 players sent over 3 mobs to defend at any time this round.

(my personal stat) Total friendly mobs launched: 3 574

If almost half the players active last week could send at least 3 defending mobs at any time this whole round (20 days) it's quite obvious to me the forcing into alliances while apparently succesfull (more alliances) was far from a pleasant experience for many players. I'm even curious how many actually sent over 30 defensive mobs which let's say would be a decent number for an inactive member.

I agree,
I've found a lot more inactive alliances from both top and bottom which means the people playing ally's couldn't even give a ****.. now I don't know if those players traditionally played solo in previous rounds but it does say less and less people could give a **** about this game :p
35 alliances this round for those who have been forced into allies is pretty sad. As the game stood last round, most of the players were solo and for a ~1200 player base game, where are all the players? That's a very low statistic.. Sure we can turn out traffic and users to this game but without a solid product, the game is not turning out active users..
(like DS said, 574 players out of the 766 players sent out more than 3 mobs)

The removal of solo in this mini round just goes to show us the microcosm that would happen if a full round was entirely alliance based. Without solo, this game is truly, Bashtarion of what Bushtarion used to be.
 

Changer

Head Gardener
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Dec 14, 2007
Messages
475
Location
London
Re: A Tad Better Imo

Well I have personally played in alliances in this game for nearly 20 rounds it must be now. But I have finally come to a point where I think its fruitless. Why play in an alliance with friends, watching those that cannot get online constantly to send away from one tick bashings, getting zeroed. So far this round I have managed to avoid getting zeroed by this tactic, mainly due to being contactable 24 Hours a day, which the majority of the player base will never be.

But next round, when AR is back, I don't see why I can't take my alliance solo with the AR protection and still communicate and hitting alliances much the same way we have been doing so as an alliance and enjoying it. But without the constant threat of seven or eight IDs from a much much larger alliance/s all sending at us, 4 attackers per tick. To me this is looking more and more like the way this game is heading and to be brutally honest a more enjoyable experience all round.

Reduced land grabs were brought in to stop this tactic from gaining land, but they clearly still gain enough, especially after once they have got through to attacking for 1 three of the four IDs will recall to increase the land grab for the remaining ID.

If this is the way the game is heading then it is pushing more and more people away from alliance play and I can't blame them. And by trying to push them back into alliances with methods that other people want to use, I honestly believe it will result in more people leaving the game than it will attract.

So unless something drastic happens to the way alliance play between upper alliances and lower alliances occurs then next round you may see a lower number than ever of alliances and yet an ever decreasing player base.

Just my two cents
 

Alcibiades

Plant Geneticist
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Re: A Tad Better Imo

This has certainly been my least enjoyable round for allied play. Whether it's due to round circumstances or the changes enacted just for the round i wouldn't want to say 100% but Changer is right; 4 to a tick bashing is the way of the game now and that's boring. It's not even fun on either side, believe me i've been there; boring to have no BR if your target sends out, and boring to have to constantly wake up to send out and last tick bashes. Fun times. oh no wait, no it's not.

Screw allied, i'm going solo next round. Who's looking for a Pnap?

Edit: the link to continuous bashing etc is injuries. Remove them and 85% of the allied stress will be gone just like that. You die once, 3 days off. 2 if you're faster. Those days off were vital. I've said it before and i'll say it until someone notices. ;)
 

SadYear

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Nantes
Re: A Tad Better Imo

Alcibiades said:
Edit: the link to continuous bashing etc is injuries. Remove them and 85% of the allied stress will be gone just like that. You die once, 3 days off. 2 if you're faster. Those days off were vital. I've said it before and i'll say it until someone notices. ;)

Teh Alci's got a very good point there. :)
 

Changer

Head Gardener
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Messages
475
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London
Re: A Tad Better Imo

Alcibiades said:
Screw allied, i'm going solo next round. Who's looking for a Pnap?

I'm sure their called something else next round but thats where i'm heading

Alcibiades said:
Edit: the link to continuous bashing etc is injuries. Remove them and 85% of the allied stress will be gone just like that. You die once, 3 days off. 2 if you're faster. Those days off were vital. I've said it before and i'll say it until someone notices. ;)

Completely agree with you again. Would now have to manage to zero myself 2-3 times and lose all my land just to stop these bash attacks. Used to enjoy rebuilding from scratch almost more than being up there waiting for the inevitable to happen.
 

tobapopalos

Hydroponics Developer
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Re: A Tad Better Imo

To be honest, I think the bashings that occur nowadays are nothing to do with game mechanics, or anything Azzer has done. It's just the simple fact that 99% of our playerbase are incompetent ****tards that can't get land without 3 other people holding their hands (they are also imbred, so they have extra hands to hold onto).
 

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
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Re: A Tad Better Imo

Suprisingly I disagree with majority what people have posted here... well not. Actually I disagree with majority of reasons people have posted here.
I dont see how solos are making this game better... what people are referring to is what solos WERE which we have seen is death of this game and alliances in it.
Please people,if you want to make statements, at least bother to give some other ways out of these situations. Returning AR and solos as they were is not one of those!! Solos were huge death blow for this game!
I have played this game since round 5 or smething, I never complained of massing and bashing as it were back then...

Ok Ok some rules have changed... and that is why we are experiencing what we are now. It is actually time to think what we want instead of simply making everything bad.
First of all...
If problem is in not dieing, how are players compensated for their losses?
Is land score actually better than unit/seed/plant score? No matter of score queening.
Any other options? Like reducing cap rate to 0 after lost land?

I actually think that one possible option would be to increse funds reward from lost land * cost of it. And lost units * cost. And all returned stuff would be in funds. But in not normal funds but in funds that would not alter your score unless put to action.
This would bring very few problems. Only problem would be people who try to store those "non score" funds... Taking that your return rate would be like 50% or so, it wouldnt be that cost benefitical.

So in any ways. Please try to bring some suggestions/alterations if you plan to whack something. Whacking in blind is not the way to go... I may be negative person, yes. But at least I trie to bring some solutions to my posts not just wham them to the ground.

Thank you!
 

DarkSider

Tree Surgeon
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
796
Re: A Tad Better Imo

I didn't post solo players are salvation of Bush or alliances will be better with solo's back. I just dislike alliance play in Bushtarion the way it is now. I consider myself a team player actually and i'd enjoy to be part of a good group, but the main things that make me stay away from alliance play are:

- activity and contactibility demands. Bush it's more about activity than skill when it comes to alliances. I'd rather have 15 active noobs who can follow orders than 15 less active pro's. I mean in many other games activity matters but in bush activity and sleeping with the phone on your pillow is maybe over 90% when talking about quality of a player.

- inactive members on decent acres getting bigger and more powerfull than the active members who fight all the odds in both attacks and defence.

- huge and almost direct damage on your company of other members getting killed or slacking. Alliance play is so much about defence and from here comes all requirements and sad faces and demoralize from one bad day where defence wasn't there. Alliances would be more fun imo if they would use their activity and organization for retaliation instead paranoic defence.

So to resume, make skill and experience matter over activity, active playing to be rewarded instead staying on acres and hoping others can protect your big and undeserved income. If you get protection for a few weeks and then decide to move to another alliance as it happened in past that's even worse :) And also make players more self dependent and their competence in managing their own company will help the alliance attacking and retaliation force.

I'm not sure how this all could be achieved but looking at other games i played and enjoyed i could say:
- all alliances public
- remove alliance defence abilities and view of other members current incomings just show in "alliance news" when a member of yours just fought in defence.
- increase returning mob eta's or somehow make the game slower so retaliations can be organized and insanely fast reaction (under 10 minutes to get online) won't be as needed anymore.
- Maybe even have something like 100% injury but with a pretty high return time. So you won't be as scared of getting zeroed and beeing useless right away but you'd want to protect and increase your income while also decreasing income of enemies :>
Just a few points i managed to think of fast :p If you'd loose the stress of constantly refreshing to see who needs defence in the alliance you can play more relaxed, put your whole efforts into managing your company and in times of war alliance coordination and organization it's critical.
 

BlackWolf

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Re: A Tad Better Imo

You want to turn alliances to bunch of solos who can see what is going on if they bother to click some alliance news page... rofl.
Whatta smeg would there be reason to be in alliances anymore, if those are just group of solos... and then you call yourself an alliance player... hilarious.
 

Therra

Digger
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
4
Re: A Tad Better Imo

BlackWolf said:
You want to turn alliances to bunch of solos who can see what is going on if they bother to click some alliance news page... rofl.
Whatta smeg would there be reason to be in alliances anymore, if those are just group of solos... and then you call yourself an alliance player... hilarious.

He's just suggesting a few things to make alliance play much more enjoyable for inactive players, most of the people can't be bothered to wake up in the middle of the night or be online 12 hours a day.

I get the feeling you're not even reading half the posts on the forums, I suggest you do that before you post anymore useless stuff.
 

Azzer

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Re: A Tad Better Imo

DarkSider said:
- all alliances public

I'd love to be able to make alliances public, but then you force all solos to be in an alliance because they are all painted as huge targets as solos. Most games that have public alliances/guilds etc. don't really have any solo play in them whatsoever. Solutions welcome but I can'#t see it happening without basically preventing solos altogether.

DarkSider said:
- remove alliance defence abilities and view of other members current incomings just show in "alliance news" when a member of yours just fought in defence.

So being active so you can report to your mates when you have incoming, or being active by constantly spying on your guild-mates to see income, would become important... thus activity would actually be more important, not less.

DarkSider said:
- increase returning mob eta's or somehow make the game slower so retaliations can be organized and insanely fast reaction (under 10 minutes to get online) won't be as needed anymore.

Simply add 1 or 2 ETA to all units? :p

What about making all mobs that you send go "on hold" until the tick - ie, they are invisible to everybody until the tick, and they don't appear in the targets news until the tick itself. You can recall them as normal while on hold but no news is generated by the attacker or to the target.
When it ticks, the mob becomes "visible" but doesn't reduce it's ETA yet.
This way all mobs always have the ETA of the units in them, and sending "just before the tick" doesn't give more of an advantage to sending 5 seconds after a tick.
Might add a bit of fairness to a slightly odd part of the system, I don't know.
 

DarkSider

Tree Surgeon
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Messages
796
Re: A Tad Better Imo

BW look at tribal wars. That game is waaaaaaay more popular than bush and the groups/allinces/guilds are there close to what i discribed. There is harder for other members to hold your hand, you are on your own to get bigger and you have to sweat for every bit of your army.
That game can be played relaxed but you need to know how to manage your cities, how to steal, how to actively play the game if you want to make it to the top. In bush all you need to be a valuable member for top alliance is to be able to get online 24/7 under 10 minutes so you can send troops same tick as you are called.
It's important to defend your cities but just with good defence you won't get anywhere. A game where defence it's the bone is imho a pretty booring one. Strong defence = stress for defenders and anoyed attackers. I think a game where you aim to kill them more than they kill you it's much more dynamic and exciting :)

@ Azz

I doubt solo's would bother that much about beeing listed with red "This guy is a solo". Usually there are huge solo lists that go from hand to hand before spyes are researched. Once spyes are out .. who cares they can check anyway. Sure there is a small downside but i think there is more to win if you can see what you're fighting instead attacking ghosts :p We know you like to keep things hidden as much as possible but you have to admit it's at least slightly weird to be massed by a group of id's you have written down as part of an alliance and you can't even say X alliance is attacking us or you have to declare war on an alliance based on the rumours you heard about those id's belonging to that ally.

Azzer said:
So being active so you can report to your mates when you have incoming, or being active by constantly spying on your guild-mates to see income, would become important... thus activity would actually be more important, not less.

I only give a part of the ideea, it's not a full suggestion :p The ideea is to diminuate defence requirements, heavy responsability you have to defend the other members, stress caused by the need to spot a massive incoming the first couple minutes after tick, stress caused by the need to get online in a couple minutes after you get hl/call so you don't miss the tick (in many cases you need eta 4 defence for head on def else eta 3 might be too weak and if you miss that tick too the guy is required to be contactable or dies).
So many like solo because they don't have to deal with much of that stress .. randomly refreshing once an hour is fine .. and if you die you're just upset of your loss, you won't feel as much you let the alliance down. Hopefully you'd want to be part of retaliation and get a small army with game cash right away ^^

Let's take Utopia, another huge mmorpg. There attacks are made instantly, there is 0 stress about defence but you must get your kingdom online asap and organize retals while enemy troops are still returning ( when i was playing the base returning time for a mob was 12 hours but you could cut it down to something like 6 h with a specialised war build ). Other kingdom attacked so there's no place for pussying about, the harm was done no point crying and worrying about anything. You must engage and fight back !
They attacked, you attacked and so on every alliance tryed to choose the best strategies focusing attacks and destroing one member or sending spread to maximise land grabs. Same with mages and thiefs .. waste everything on a couple members to get them out of the war and identify the exact ones that need to be taken out or just do moderate damage among all of them. You needed tactics, members talking to eachother and coordinate everything in perfect harmony .. that's what an alliance should be about. There 18 h active noobs didn't mean much unless you told them every step and just used them so you can't be accused of having multi accounts :D
Bush it's too much about speed, reaction time (omg send 5 seconds before tick! ; zomg recall the fakes in the last second maybe they pull; oh what a noob that guy's connection was slightly laggy and he died when he pressed recall with 10 seconds to go) and not enough about using your head.


Your "invisible" mob thing it's interesting tho it cuts alot from strategies especially when watching how the other ally defends during the tick in progress as you won't be able to adjust your plan before it ticks. I guess it could be used for sending attacks only tho i'm not sure :p
And the +1 or 2 eta won't work that well, it just gives more time to victims of attacks to get online, the defence still needs to come in 10 max 20 minutes. It would probably be another game if you'd change too much but if you want alliance play to prosper you need first to identify the cause which keeps many players from being part of an ally then try to fix those. Just forcing them in alliances and hope they get used with that won't work well imo.
 

Harbinger

Pruner
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Dec 15, 2007
Messages
54
Re: A Tad Better Imo

DS - why not just disable Spy. Intel just extends as far as Haxor - that's it. All attacks are blind - all you know is the targets route/army - you don't know if the target is solo or allied (although you will quickly build up that knowledge) - you don't know what defence if any is there - you don't know if he's sent away and last ticking - you don't know if AR has been triggered - etc ...

I know it could increase bashing - but one bad BR where solid defence is there will deter that.

Some of the most fun I've had in the game is deliberately not spying the target - just waiting for the first tick BR is fun ;) Sometimes it's green - sometimes it's red!!
 

Azzer

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Re: A Tad Better Imo

Remember that a lot of the web-games you think about when you talk about ideas for how attacks should work, don't allow multiple attackers & defenders to merge in to a single unified attack. The attack styles of those other games are very different - it's always "1 v 1", and it's always time-based (if you send at 17:54:00, and your ETA is 23m 16s, your attack will take place at 18:17:16... in a lot of games only vs the defender, in other games only vs whatever defending troops are there but not with other attackers). The fact Bushtarion let's you do joint defenses and joint attacks changes at least some of how those attacks & defenses, and the launching/recalling of fleet can work compared to other games.

I still like the idea of all alliances being public, but I'd fear that public opposition and vocalisation of solo's saying it's ruined the game for them and then their subsequent forum and IRC and private and public slating of the game and it's end would be seriously damaging... maybe I'm wrong, maybe a lot of you solo players out there can speak up your opinion of there being no such thing as a private alliance and what impact that'd have on solo play, likewise you alliance players.

I've always disliked alliances being private and players never really knowing "Oh hey alliance [name] did that to me!" or "Oh damn those alliance [name] members!", instead it's "Hmm, who are these ID's? Are they all in an alliance? Are they solos working together? Have people swapped what alliance they are in? What's going on"... as you call it "ghosts"... I don't like the ghosts :p

As for not spying (in reply to Harby now), I'm sure that has it's own problems, especially if anti-rape remains "lethal", maybe if it gave 95% injury or was entirel unlethal it could work. Removal of spies might even reduce bashing, but then you get people saying "Hey why didn't I get much land?" "Well there were 3 other people attacking with you, it was a bash attack...." "And how was I to know that?". So then perhaps you make all rules related to land caps, bashing, bounty gains etc. only ever be on the individual to individual score (or alliance scores somehow for alliance members)... I don't know. Lot's of technically very simple changes to code or implement that could have huge sweeping dramatic changes for Bush, for better or for worse.
 

Max

Garden Designer
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Re: A Tad Better Imo

Actually Azzer, I'd argue against Public Alliances from an allied point of view!

If players can immediately tell who is and isn't allied at the round start, it makes it far to easy for players to get land (to be fair, on both solos and allied players for this one).

I think that smaller alliances would get hit very hard if they were all public, as enemies could immediately tell how many were in the alliance, so starting up an alliance midround could prove fatal (getting picked off before the alliance is full).

However, personally as a solo I'd love all the players to show as allied. That way I could immediately tell which of my targets were solo so I wouldn't have to spend time spying :p However, I can see a lot of incognito solos feeling rather differently!
 
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