Harrier Route

[Walking_Death]

Since IAS and turnip2k made this topics, I'll make one too. This one is on the highly useless harrier route not so useless.

I've played this route twice, and I know that I'm not a pro, but I have enough experience to know that its not amazing. Lets start by going through each unit...


Private - £17,500
*/*/*/*
720 init (extremely late firing) close tick, eta 4. Fires at LET/ALL

I know that privates are for all the branches, its just that they're completely useless except maybe as flak for strikers who can't get marines. And for 1 hp 1 ap, look at what you're paying. Highly useless unit, even worse than serfs imo.

Officers are simply too expensive, but other than say a 5-7.5k price drop, I have no issues. Now onto the harrier route units themselves...

Paratrooper - £30,000
*/***/*/***
700 initiative
ETA 3, LET/NLT/ALL
fires all ticks

My only gripe is the really late firing for an AD unit. The only thing that would benefit much would be the units from above, which is something the other 2 branches don't have to resort to. Overall though, they are solid and make good flak and killers of SGTs, but I'd still like to see them get a small boost in HD if not the drop in initiative below 500

Flamethrower - £29,000
*/*/*****/*
510 initiative
ETA 4, ALL
fires close tick

Besides the P unit, I see this unit as the main sweeper of the route, as it fires after the main AD units and will be hitting mostly flak, if the route is effective against whatever LETs were sent.. I'd like to see there guys get a decent boost in both AP and HP. Also, if dropping paratrooper initiative isn't an option, maybe drop these guys to fire last. Also, a very tiny boost in AD would make these guys great. Not imbalanced, but worth having.

Ranger - £56,000
***/****/****/**
500 init
ETA 5, LET
fires all ticks

This unit is pretty solid, not much of a change needed. Maybe a small drop in price if anything at all.

Harrier - £80,000
*/***/**/*****
350 init
ETA 3, LET/ALL
fires all ticks

Where should I start? I guess I'll start with the ridiculous price tag. These things don't have enough killing power, and possibly not even enough armor stripping power to cost that much. They sure as hell don't have the durability, or even that low of an init to back it. Here's a short list of the units that can destroy these things that fire before them, most of which they can't even kill themselves.....

RPG Trooper
Striker (don't get 1:1, but not too low of a ratio)
Assassins
Vampire

Honorable Mentions to Poms and Hooligans because they don't kill.

Then there's TLs which do well against them (more HP than harriers do, enough AD to go about 1:1 at £35,000 less). Cybernetic Warriors do serious damage, but that's acceptable since CWs cost even more than harriers. All in all, for the price, it's a terrible unit and needs either a sizable buff in HD and survivability or a major price drop.

Now onto the P-unit...

F-117s - £137,000
*/***/*****/******
50 init
ETA 6 (reveal 2), ALL
fires r/m ticks

These guys are pretty decent, except for 1 part; ETA 6. I can deal with RPGs being their bane, but the ETA 6 isn't much good at all. These guys are stealth, yeah, but unless you send pure F-117 mobs, its not like you can surprise anyone at all. People will see the ETA 6 and immediately get some RPG Trooper support.

Bottom line: Make them ETA 5.

And those are my ideas. From me and my friend's experiences, this route isn't that good, and is nigh on useless without F-117s. Thanks for reading

 

[CFalcon]

The big mistake everyone makes is to think of it as the "harrier route" and not the "ranger route". Ranger heavy with a few f117s/harriers supporting can be very formidable. Harrier heavy is fragile.

I'd agree that harriers aren't worth their cost, but the route as a whole is far from 'useless'.

 

[Walking_Death]

The big mistake everyone makes is to think of it as the "harrier route" and not the "ranger route". Ranger heavy with a few f117s/harriers supporting can be very formidable. Harrier heavy is fragile.

I'd agree that harriers aren't worth their cost, but the route as a whole is far from 'useless'.

rangers fire far too late to be truly effective as the main part of the route. by the time they shoot, Snipers have swept whatever the rpgs havent killed, the CWs have attacked, the TLs have, and even the dragons have

 

[Dax]

The big mistake everyone makes is to think of it as the "harrier route" and not the "ranger route". Ranger heavy with a few f117s/harriers supporting can be very formidable. Harrier heavy is fragile.

I'd agree that harriers aren't worth their cost, but the route as a whole is far from 'useless'.

CF knows his stuff, and I agree with him.
Rangers are one of the primary SO hunters left in this game, since Vamps have been adjusted. F117s; PoM hunters - Extremely effective ones too, I might add.
Paratroopers - Anti SD, Stun Droid, Hoolies, etc. They are one of the extreme few anti NLT in this game as it currently stands, changing these would be silly.
Flamethrowers - Early-round anti-INN. Extremely effective in this role, also. Mostly a non-requirement in later parts of the round.
Harriers - While flimsy, they hold a massive use - ETA 3. They are perfect for rushing targets with bounty on their heads that are Robotics. Simple as. They can appear ETA 2 if you send end of tick, and more often than not will obliterate Robotics 70% of you without much trouble.
You need to think far deeper into these units than you seem to be. Maybe posting in here might of helped you realise their wider purpose?

 

[Walking_Death]

The big mistake everyone makes is to think of it as the "harrier route" and not the "ranger route". Ranger heavy with a few f117s/harriers supporting can be very formidable. Harrier heavy is fragile.

I'd agree that harriers aren't worth their cost, but the route as a whole is far from 'useless'.

CF knows his stuff, and I agree with him.
Rangers are one of the primary SO hunters left in this game, since Vamps have been adjusted. F117s; PoM hunters - Extremely effective ones too, I might add.
Paratroopers - Anti SD, Stun Droid, Hoolies, etc. They are one of the extreme few anti NLT in this game as it currently stands, changing these would be silly.
Flamethrowers - Early-round anti-INN. Extremely effective in this role, also. Mostly a non-requirement in later parts of the round.
Harriers - While flimsy, they hold a massive use - ETA 3. They are perfect for rushing targets with bounty on their heads that are Robotics. Simple as. They can appear ETA 2 if you send end of tick, and more often than not will obliterate Robotics 70% of you without much trouble.
You need to think far deeper into these units than you seem to be. Maybe posting in here might of helped you realise their wider purpose?

For each of your points, I have an experience to counter it. First off the SO hunting with rangers... I suppose rangers are pretty effective since they'll still have armor up when the SAs fire (unless its a joint attack) and theyll still have health when the sins are done etc. etc. As I said, rangers are pretty solid. However, if you mass rangers, which are lacking in the AD department and don't have the highly expensive harriers/F-117s to back them up, then robots can come in. Paras don't even go 5:1 on CWs, while CWs will rip apart rangers. For harriers, the most obvious fix is simple, just reduce the price. Here's a small list of actions that will make the route playable and more with its strengths balancing out its many weaknesses.


Reduce Harrier price by £15,000 to £20,000.
Allow paratroopers to fire before flamethrowers.
Make F-117s ETA 5.
Increase flamethrower durability a little, maybe even less than a star.
Increase flamethrower AD by a very little amount

 

[Dax]

I know you have played the route, and so have I.
Everything has to have a negative side in this game mate, that's how it is. If you pick Harriers, you're picked on. If you pick mass Rangers, you're picked on. If you mix it all, you still get picked on. I rate the route is very flexible as it is, it just requires a good alliance or active NAP ring to hold your hand.

 

[Walking_Death]

I know you have played the route, and so have I.
Everything has to have a negative side in this game mate, that's how it is. If you pick Harriers, you're picked on. If you pick mass Rangers, you're picked on. If you mix it all, you still get picked on. I rate the route is very flexible as it is, it just requires a good alliance or active NAP ring to hold your hand.

Well no route should be like that! You shouldn't require someone to watch out for you 24/7. No route should. Any route that does require that it damn near useless, and I don't think harrier was designed that way. Just fix it up. You'll still get picked on, but it'll be less severe...

 

[Alvestein]

every route has a weakness like Dax said. Harrier has as much uses as it does problems, it all just depends on your playstyle and what route you'd like to hunt.

 

[Walking_Death]

every route has a weakness like Dax said. Harrier has as much uses as it does problems, it all just depends on your playstyle and what route you'd like to hunt.

harriers have only a few targets for them to hunt. Special Ops if your ranger heavy, robotics if you're harrier heavy. That's about all they have. If you mix it, you still get raped by RPG+Snipers, TL, etc. etc. It shouldn't be that way

 

[Alcibiades]

I find the cost of harriers to be the most prohibitive fault. 80k??!? Seriously?

 

[Walking_Death]

I find the cost of harriers to be the most prohibitive fault. 80k??!? Seriously?

I knew I wasn't the only one thinking that...

 

[Iamsmart]

Making harriers cheaper or do more damage just isn't viable with the fact that they're eta 3. Any better and they will be close to an RPG that can rush in without defense...

No to making f-117's eta 5. Too good of a unit.

I think the route is fineish tbh. Maybe make it a bit harder to kill harriers. Just not a popular one. Late firing routes generally aren't.

 

[Alcibiades]

Well my main experience with harriers is watching toby use them a couple rounds ago... and I remember Harriers not being as incredible as the hype made them seem. Yeah, they dished out a large amount of damage if they managed to fire, and yes they were exceptionally rushable. However, unless you kill all the LETs, you're going to get mullered in return when someone fires on your Harriers. I don't expect (or want) them to be overpowered, but it seems to me that despite some of their (apparent) advantages, they simply die too easily.

At the moment, with the adrenaline rush/bounty system in place, it's probably profitable to rush with harriers, but without that, I don't think it would be a worthwhile use of time or units. Rushing and losing half or more of your balsam wood armoured units isn't exactly awesome.

I agree with Iamsmart that harriers need to be a little stronger. Not immensely, but just a little more to make the 80k pricetag and the rushing capability worthwhile.

 

[Ahead]

I could agree with / accept a very minor increase in their survivability, but I think the rest of the route is fine as it is. Paras are even good too now.

 

[willymchilybily]

i couldnt get on with the route, it isnt designed in my experience to kill armour as well as dax says. i couldnt kill a robo 70% of me with harriers, even when flacked with a few paras so i get two swipes at the pie. even when massed. they're cost inhibits you attacking some one with even moderate AR (40-50%) because the amount you need to kill a robo unit is too much imo. they are a good deterent against sorcs route raping you (and maybe even a balanced tl/pb) , but once again cost makes it a bit inaffective as they need to be most of your unit score cos those enemies have much cheaper units and are generally bigger than you. If you balance them with a few rangers you can still die nicely to a sorc route if not flacked well. But in terms of attacking i couldnt get to grips with them.

but i do see they have many benefits in an alliance, anti gargoyle rush and anti pb rush. but for me the problem is that although they can do that, and the route is cheap to tech. being the last non punit on the tree means that they dont necsecerily come out in time to really prevent such rushes and a whopping 220 tick development time. so they wont be out when most needed. and now bounty is only nice when attacking dishonourable i think you're less likely to see a rush on your alliance unless being massed anyway.

but hats off to you if you could send enough at a robo target @ 70% of you to kill it without triggering. then either close to 0% Ar or poorly set up robo imo. it takes like 3 of them to kill a cyber if not more iirc. thats never going to be cost effective when the robo is flacked as it means you need to send nearly double the unit score of your enemy for a clean sweep. (1.45*any value AR will not allow that) ergo never gonna get in and out cleanly, and when you do lose a few(cos they are weak) its alot of value you lose due to that hefty price tag.

rangers are fun though.

Edit:
£110,000 (1CW) *1.45(0% AR) =£159,500
£159,500 / £80,000 = 1.99 Harrier vs 1 cyber. is maximum send ever possible unit per unit (ignoring land score etc) on a solo robo

ps. can some one quote me harrier s to kill 1 cyber just for my peace of mind. iirc 2.8-3.3? or am i getting confused?

 

[Souls]

Drop harriers to ETA 4 and turn the price down to 60k-65k. Ta-da!

 

[CFalcon]

ps. can some one quote me harrier s to kill 1 cyber just for my peace of mind. iirc 2.8-3.3? or am i getting confused?

Nowhere near that much. ~1.5:1 harrier:cw, if firing on pure CW.

 

[Davs]

ps. can some one quote me harrier s to kill 1 cyber just for my peace of mind. iirc 2.8-3.3? or am i getting confused?

Nowhere near that much. ~1.5:1 harrier:cw, if firing on pure CW.

Indeed.

Harriers do a very large amount of AD. Until RPGs got a buff a few rounds ago (iirc) they were regarded as the most powerful armour killers. But that obviously had to come with downsides - mainly their health/lack thereof.

I've never used this route, but I've attacked it enough times to see that it's far from a weak route - it's just a bit slow. But as people have said, it's really nice as part of an alliance for defending rushes, and as extra fire power during alliance attacks.

 

[Iamsmart]

Drop harriers to ETA 4 and turn the price down to 60k-65k. Ta-da!

But then the route is boring

 

[Souls]

But then it's actually useful ;P