...you still don't get it do you?
Look at your second point. Why should you be allowed to get a rough idea?. You haven't answered that.
Don't try and make me seem stupid when other people clearly understand what i'm trying to say.
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Those wishing to contribute to the game by making suggestions (both small and large) should read the following before doing so.
Bushtarion largely runs completely automatically, and has been designed intentionally to be as self-maintaining as possible, with mechanics and balance considered at a completed point.
Please do not spend large amounts of time coming up with complex suggestions in the hope that they will be read and possibly implemented in the future, unless you just enjoy the discussion, theory-craft, and such.
The most likely changes will be rules-changes, specific number-tweaks to units, techs, and similar sorts of changes, and only if a large community consensus is reached as "proof" that a change would, overall, be an improvement, and are more likely to be done in batches, occassionally, not as a regular thing.
H/F Rating to show in hover over thing!
- Thread starter Cheese
- Start date
...you still don't get it do you?
Look at your second point. Why should you be allowed to get a rough idea?. You haven't answered that.
Don't try and make me seem stupid when other people clearly understand what i'm trying to say.
So you think it fair to
because H/F is a public stat.
How does that make any sense? Two unrelated points.
Bottom line, in my (shared) opinion, being able to figure out better how many H/F units a player has takes away part of their lethality early round, which is a big part of why they are good. Once hacks/spys are out, people can just factor them in to attacks as any other blocker/flak killer, so they get nerfed anyway. This nerf's them in their (short) element. H/F being a (semi) public stat has nothing to do with this. If anything it's a point for hiding the exact H/F completely and just using titles. Not that that's my point.
But those people spend their time getting that by attacking honourably and acquiring the h/f rating, you just seem to want to make it useless for them everyone who is saying t should be in their title, get yourself some WKs if you're that annoyed but I think it's fine the way it is.
Cheese
Tree Surgeon
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2007
- Messages
- 698
Um white knights get 1:15 on flak... so 100k before hacks come out kills 1.5m flak which can be a hell of alot for people to lose. So that is what I meant by a ridiculous amount... sorry you don't understand simple english as much as most.
My point as why it should be implimented is the same reason as i've said several times... IT IS PUBLIC INFORMATION ALREADY.
And please please stop saying that if you get the H/F rating you can figure out how many WK somebody has it is complete and utterly stupid!
WK appear over time
Show me how you can tell how long somebody has had a specific H/F rating for, purely from looking at their H/F rating.
And ever thought it would work as a deterent to people who are getting constantly raped?
I'm seriously done with explaining the same thing in easier language for you to understand so please don't expect another responce from me directed towards yourself.
Elevnos: I have White Knights, and I don't find them annoying I am thinking more about the playerbase and not about myself. Losing 2m flak before any real lethals are out can destroy quite alot of players early on in the round, no it hasn't myself as I can easily replace that kind of loss but alot of people it can be a right *******.
willymchilybily
Landscape Designer
i see how you like to have them and enjoy having them, and it is a good award for an honourable player, or some one that gets bashed alot. but they are at the end of the day a new bonus. that seems to be easy to get early on when everyone is the same/similar size.
As you can more easily flak some higher ranked people get good honour and fame early in the round. fame is just about activity with attacking regularly its fairly easy to get. and you can get a resonable amy of them (reasonable based on thier flack killing ratios) which as cheese says can be painful if your attacking a "nobody" with no clue if they may or may not have white knights so early on in the game. If people could tell you may have white nights they would not attack you if other targets are around. until hacks are out ofc. so it stil deters people.
the only advantage i see. is if some one zeros a load of flack on you your'd probably get even higher h/f so even more white knights. I think it is you guys being selfish not wanting people to know if you have them easily, just so you can get more of them. but it is (i think) wrong that people cant chose to avoid targets that may have them.
I dont think it was azzers intention to have it so you wouldnt know who has them (nobodies) from the outset. and i think your moaning so hard about the possibility of this changing because its given you a nice advantage and a nice amount of land in the early flak wars. (more land = more inc more flack killing moe WK) so your gaining score for doing nothing saving for developments and gaining land. so in affect. the game is penalising the not attackign >70% playstyle more heavil;y than intended and more heavily than advertised in the journal. just because you cant chose to avoid a target that is a nobody. (pre green title)
As you can more easily flak some higher ranked people get good honour and fame early in the round. fame is just about activity with attacking regularly its fairly easy to get. and you can get a resonable amy of them (reasonable based on thier flack killing ratios) which as cheese says can be painful if your attacking a "nobody" with no clue if they may or may not have white knights so early on in the game. If people could tell you may have white nights they would not attack you if other targets are around. until hacks are out ofc. so it stil deters people.
the only advantage i see. is if some one zeros a load of flack on you your'd probably get even higher h/f so even more white knights. I think it is you guys being selfish not wanting people to know if you have them easily, just so you can get more of them. but it is (i think) wrong that people cant chose to avoid targets that may have them.
I dont think it was azzers intention to have it so you wouldnt know who has them (nobodies) from the outset. and i think your moaning so hard about the possibility of this changing because its given you a nice advantage and a nice amount of land in the early flak wars. (more land = more inc more flack killing moe WK) so your gaining score for doing nothing saving for developments and gaining land. so in affect. the game is penalising the not attackign >70% playstyle more heavil;y than intended and more heavily than advertised in the journal. just because you cant chose to avoid a target that is a nobody. (pre green title)
SO WHAT. People can have a a million spikes before hacks come out which could rape 10 million flak which is even more at that stage. THEY ARE A UNIT, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER. You are basically saying "Oh, units die easily if you attack a stronger one". No ****ing **** Sherlock.
Don't even embarrass yourself buy trying to insult me, you are the one who clearly doesn't have two brain cells to run together.
That's not a reason for nerfing the lethality of a unit. Go back to school.
So if you can't figure anything out from it what's the point it bothering with this suggestion at all? Because you can gauge from it, so again, think before you type.
And deterrent to what? If LETs aren't out this stage as you suggest, then it's just flak, and these units rape flak. So how would any one in this situation be constantly raped? They'd either trigger, or have to send a lot more flak to get through (which means its a fair, standard attack in which one lands).
You clearly don't even know what you arguing or how to read, so yes, please stop posting.
Turnip2k
Harvester
The problem would be fixed if Azzer simply moved all the titles around to start at 2k HF.
willymchilybily
Landscape Designer
Ezekiel & others
cheese isn't saying to nerf the unit. he is saying make it known that somebody with a nobody title may or may not have these units in early flak wars by showing thier h/f score, where they are out riddiculously quickly, and highly powerful. and considering it is meant to be public information make it a bit easier to access
what disadvantage is there from showing this public information on the tool tip
i put it to you that you're actually not wanting people to know you have them so you can rape flak and big incoming and gain higher h/f.thus gaining higher production of WK. You're being selfish. You have a new toy to help you score queen and you dont want to give it up, or people to have any clue you have it until the flak wars are over.
it poses no other disadvantage to you. fact.
stop abusing a loophole and then whining when someone proposes something that would prevent you exploiting said loop hole.
(and it should be changed otherwise next round your'll see alot of solos. mutually attacking and land farming eachother to gain h/f to gain WK as quickly as possible) and by the time any one has spies to report it it will be too late, and out of thier news.
EDIT: and finally if you really really really dont want some one to know your EXACT H/F easily because you think they can guess/estimate WK levels within your army. Then can we at least make it 2,000 H/F gains you some sort of green title to disginguish those that may have WK and those that cant have them. that way there is not value ergo no way it can be calculated at all.[not that it can be anyway]
cheese isn't saying to nerf the unit. he is saying make it known that somebody with a nobody title may or may not have these units in early flak wars by showing thier h/f score, where they are out riddiculously quickly, and highly powerful. and considering it is meant to be public information make it a bit easier to access
what disadvantage is there from showing this public information on the tool tip
- firstly it will deter people from attacking you anyway as they cant know how many you have only that you may have them
- it will not alter your ability to use them to eat flak
- it will only affect those with a nobody title near round start because they are the ones that could potentially have them and not show it.
i put it to you that you're actually not wanting people to know you have them so you can rape flak and big incoming and gain higher h/f.thus gaining higher production of WK. You're being selfish. You have a new toy to help you score queen and you dont want to give it up, or people to have any clue you have it until the flak wars are over.
it poses no other disadvantage to you. fact.
stop abusing a loophole and then whining when someone proposes something that would prevent you exploiting said loop hole.
(and it should be changed otherwise next round your'll see alot of solos. mutually attacking and land farming eachother to gain h/f to gain WK as quickly as possible) and by the time any one has spies to report it it will be too late, and out of thier news.
EDIT: and finally if you really really really dont want some one to know your EXACT H/F easily because you think they can guess/estimate WK levels within your army. Then can we at least make it 2,000 H/F gains you some sort of green title to disginguish those that may have WK and those that cant have them. that way there is not value ergo no way it can be calculated at all.[not that it can be anyway]
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Willy Cheese IS nerfing the unit because (and I feel like this is a catch phrase now) early round, this undermines their lethality as this"surprise" you lot seem to talk about is half the punch. And hacks are out so soon now it's not very long for which this units can catch you off guard. Since you still didn't get that, I'm going to assume the rest of your post is stuff I've already said as well. I did spot you calling me selfish, which is odd as I don't have a single WW or WK. Maybe you should not jump to conclusions.
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Cheese
Tree Surgeon
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2007
- Messages
- 698
it is not nerfing the unit
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So you think that making it easier to know if someone has ww/wk and therefore avoid/figure how to get through/kill them off, doesn't make them anyless powerful (read: actually useful).
I think I should just go bang my head against a wall if you can't grasp that.
cheese it seems to me like you just want this so that you can kill the troops easily and steal their land anyway, what you want to do is make the unit useless by telling everyone that that person has straight away. They sacrifice getting lots of land by getting h/f ratings high and you just want to render that useless...
willymchilybily
Landscape Designer
please read these points carefully it will do you some good and if you can argue against them then I'll be happy to let the matter rest.
the more your bashed the higher your h/f the quicker you produce WK. no one is going to try and kill them for the sake of it if your doing it or for land unless desperate because:
1) you are able to get good land, and not need to buy lethals/hippy/yob/sd/guru in such large numbers allowing you to save for developments
2) every one goes for easy land so won't try to land you if there are better targets without flak killers.
3) the bounty if your h/f is positive is 5% and the units are worth next to nothing. killing you with lethals will vastly boost your h/f and production rate, moderately boosting the AR (not much due to cost).
4) the early round lethals that can kill dont shoot before your WK or dont shoot range. you get 1-2 free ticks of flak killing either way, so only some one who is happy to lose flak at a ratio of 14:1 or higher (17:1 has been observed) would contemplate it. and until some one gets pa's assassins sa terrorist or harriers your white knights are going to always shoot for at least one tick if not more! not many people would intentionally attack you for land unless they want to lose alot of flak. and they sure as hell wont be getting much bounty off a target with 5% bounty and a unit worth a poxy £100. JESUS CHRIST THINK IT THROUGH!
5) any DYING improves your production rate with both increased H/f (which doesnt degrade over time) and your fame (tempory)...furhter more you will do more damge to thier innocents (for cost of unit and damage rate) than they will do damage to you as the unit is SOOOOO cheap . ergo you will beat a large incoming in the damage stats. and therefore gain SIGNIFICANT increase h/f and production rate as stipulated in the manual. and i quote "the worse the odds are stacked against you (and the other defenders), the more potential you have for gaining honour. The more successful your defense based on these odds, the more honour you may gain also."
6) because you have been honourable and got WK you probably have lost little land and have increased land/development. and will have your own lethals nearly as quickly as any incoming as have spent less on troops to defend your land. same as point 1 pretty much my bad.
7) finally as you say until there are hacks no one knows what you have what lethals etc. so why would they risk their first Lethals in the early flak wars against a target garenteed to have flak killers and what ever else, in unknown quantities
....so the excuse people will try to kill you is silly. sorry for any repeting its late im a little tired. but it seems like you dont want to hear anyone elses view point. but raise little of your own to truely argue against the ability to show that some one may or may not have whitenights based on thier public h/f rating. the idea that they need to be hidden to be useful is riddiculous as ive pointed out... if this public info was displayed as per original suggestion it would server just as much benefit to the person who has the knights. as well as people attacking. and detract very little from the person with the WK, as it may give them 1 or 2 less inc. at worse. not more inc! meaning they have to do more attacking to gain h/f not more waiting to victims to fall into thier laps.
the more your bashed the higher your h/f the quicker you produce WK. no one is going to try and kill them for the sake of it if your doing it or for land unless desperate because:
1) you are able to get good land, and not need to buy lethals/hippy/yob/sd/guru in such large numbers allowing you to save for developments
2) every one goes for easy land so won't try to land you if there are better targets without flak killers.
3) the bounty if your h/f is positive is 5% and the units are worth next to nothing. killing you with lethals will vastly boost your h/f and production rate, moderately boosting the AR (not much due to cost).
4) the early round lethals that can kill dont shoot before your WK or dont shoot range. you get 1-2 free ticks of flak killing either way, so only some one who is happy to lose flak at a ratio of 14:1 or higher (17:1 has been observed) would contemplate it. and until some one gets pa's assassins sa terrorist or harriers your white knights are going to always shoot for at least one tick if not more! not many people would intentionally attack you for land unless they want to lose alot of flak. and they sure as hell wont be getting much bounty off a target with 5% bounty and a unit worth a poxy £100. JESUS CHRIST THINK IT THROUGH!
5) any DYING improves your production rate with both increased H/f (which doesnt degrade over time) and your fame (tempory)...furhter more you will do more damge to thier innocents (for cost of unit and damage rate) than they will do damage to you as the unit is SOOOOO cheap . ergo you will beat a large incoming in the damage stats. and therefore gain SIGNIFICANT increase h/f and production rate as stipulated in the manual. and i quote "the worse the odds are stacked against you (and the other defenders), the more potential you have for gaining honour. The more successful your defense based on these odds, the more honour you may gain also."
6) because you have been honourable and got WK you probably have lost little land and have increased land/development. and will have your own lethals nearly as quickly as any incoming as have spent less on troops to defend your land. same as point 1 pretty much my bad.
7) finally as you say until there are hacks no one knows what you have what lethals etc. so why would they risk their first Lethals in the early flak wars against a target garenteed to have flak killers and what ever else, in unknown quantities
....so the excuse people will try to kill you is silly. sorry for any repeting its late im a little tired. but it seems like you dont want to hear anyone elses view point. but raise little of your own to truely argue against the ability to show that some one may or may not have whitenights based on thier public h/f rating. the idea that they need to be hidden to be useful is riddiculous as ive pointed out... if this public info was displayed as per original suggestion it would server just as much benefit to the person who has the knights. as well as people attacking. and detract very little from the person with the WK, as it may give them 1 or 2 less inc. at worse. not more inc! meaning they have to do more attacking to gain h/f not more waiting to victims to fall into thier laps.
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If read I said make it easier, not make it possible. I know it's possible. Once again, repeating myself.
And lol, you can see 15-20 people on the table, how is that the same thing as being able to see everyone's.
qft (sort of)
How do I not want to hear anyone elses point of view? I lost interest in this thread ages ago but I keep coming back to point out you two not reading properly. I've raised a perfect argument, that no one has actually addressed, hence why I can keep repeating it.
I really really really can't be bothered to reply to all your points because i've basically answered them all anyway. But do you even realise what you basically wrote? Go an re read your own points again. You basically just argued the case for keeping things the way they are lol. The more you get attacked (flak attack obvs, thats what this threads about) the more H/F you get and the more WW/WK. So its easier to tech/attack/defend etc. No one would risk their lets. Dying doesn't improve your situation, successfully defending does.
Helping figure out what targets have these units means they wont get attacked by people they can defend against, theyll be attacked by people who know they are going to win (THATS BUSH, ALWAYS HAS BEEN) therefore straight to my point of making them more useless. less successful defends, less knights (and it does drop over time, rtfm). Would then be harder to tech/attack.defend.
So you just dug your own grave in this argument. Also, i never said 'my excuse is that people will kill you', I just said they will be better equipped in landing. So that whole post was not even aimed at my argument.
I'm tired of this, you lot can post whatever you want, but no ones actually given me an answer as to why this is a good thing and not a bad, and others agree with me, so i guess my 2cents on this topic is done.
I gave up reading the arguments against after about half-way through the 2nd page as they seem to completely miss the point.
As has been said an unnecessarily large number of times H/F rating is a value which is already publicly viewable. This essentially means that putting in the tooltip will add no extra disadvantage to the target player.
What has also been (imo) needlessly repeated is that the H/F rating doesn't actually tell anyone how many WKs or WWs are present - just an indication that there may be some.
All this suggestion is saying is that it would be nice for a public stat to be made visible to all players, otherwise it's pointless making it public at all if only a handful of people can see it. As WKs are devastating so early in the round (which is why I think they shouldn't be gained until later in the round, possibly at the same time as the land cap gets introduced, or just at a fixed number of ticks after round start - I haven't really thought about it that much) people can get seriously hurt by an attack in which they've walked into something they never had a chance of dealing with.
Why is this so hard for people to understand? :/
As has been said an unnecessarily large number of times H/F rating is a value which is already publicly viewable. This essentially means that putting in the tooltip will add no extra disadvantage to the target player.
What has also been (imo) needlessly repeated is that the H/F rating doesn't actually tell anyone how many WKs or WWs are present - just an indication that there may be some.
All this suggestion is saying is that it would be nice for a public stat to be made visible to all players, otherwise it's pointless making it public at all if only a handful of people can see it. As WKs are devastating so early in the round (which is why I think they shouldn't be gained until later in the round, possibly at the same time as the land cap gets introduced, or just at a fixed number of ticks after round start - I haven't really thought about it that much) people can get seriously hurt by an attack in which they've walked into something they never had a chance of dealing with.
Why is this so hard for people to understand? :/
Alcibiades
Plant Geneticist
Davs, as usual, talking sense