Mass route/unit balancing/make-more-interesting-ing – Take 2

[Polo]

[09:30] <antisashes> polo's suggestions don't work :S
[09:30] <antisashes> he's made the extremists route weaker overall
[09:31] <antisashes> killed the whole point of poms
[09:32] <FFX> i like the 6 star stats tho
[09:34] <antisashes> yeh but extremists won't kill anything
[09:34] <antisashes> they need the two stars of helth to make them worth it
[09:34] <antisashes> because fanatics fire relativly late for that route
[09:36] <FFX> aye
[09:38] <FFX> mind you at last tick
[09:38] <FFX> they'll be bloody strong
[09:38] <FFX> like bunker/sentry styles?
[09:40] <antisashes> naw
[09:40] <antisashes> even if you last tick will die to secret agents before they fire
[09:40] <antisashes> as under his changes sa's would fire before
[09:39] <antisashes> strikers are not that strong either they have their weaknesses like every other route
[09:39] <antisashes> they are expensive fire late and are not very good at killing flak
[09:41] <antisashes> and if you halve the stats of bunkers you can say goodbye to anyone who wants to play but doesn't have the time
[09:42] <antisashes> its the only solo route that can compete at the higher echelons without insane activity
[09:45] <antisashes> And the whole point of the fantasy route is that nothing fires all ticks
[09:45] <antisashes> you have to know what you're doing and get propper route setups
[09:46] <antisashes> the sorc route in the right hands is quite a nice route
[09:46] <antisashes> its only real enemy is vamps
[09:54] <antisashes> at the end of the day though if it ain't broke don't fix it
[09:54] <antisashes> the only routes that needs balancing is thiefs, nutters, rangers(but not too much) and fanatics

I find it hard to take your post seriously when you obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[timtadams]

Agree with some parts, like changes to Extremists.
I think the idea for the stealth gardener is good too, i would like to see that

Im not too sure about the changes to puppets though. The puppets are a little better with lower init and eta, but by making steel walls more expensive and weaker, you just make it easier for the puppet to lose what they have bribed. Im not sure this is worth it

The bunkers should be hard to kill, its what offsets weak offence. And anyway, they can be zeroed.

I think POMs are fine as they are. I agree that something has to be done about bikers, but POMs should be strong, imo. Maybe just make bikers a bit more expensive, and/or change targetting to NLD/LET or something similar? Just to make them a little less effective against big POMs. NLD/INN....NLD/LET/INN......NLD/LET/NLT...just sorta thinking out loud

I think Strikers are a good route because they are hard to kill. They are a good option for solos who dont want to have to buy a P-unit to have a chance of surviving well, or sacrifice offensive capabilities.

Sorry dont have time to go through all, but on the whole good work polo. Agree with some stuff, not all. If i have time, or can be bothered will try make points on others

 

[Souls]

Im not too sure about the changes to puppets though. The puppets are a little better with lower init and eta, but by making steel walls more expensive and weaker, you just make it easier for the puppet to lose what they have bribed. Im not sure this is worth it

I played a top-100 puppet for most of R24 and I had no problems keeping my troops, not once did I ever buy a steel wall.

 

[tobapopalos]

I never bought steel walls as a puppet either. They're a waste of money.

 

[antisback]

-snip-

I find it hard to take your post seriously when you obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

What an intelligent post polo.

Read what i've written and think about your changes and then come back with a proper answer not your bullshit "cba to think of a real retort so I'll just say your an idiot".

If you can't see that removing extremists health damage and increasing fanatics initiative actually makes them weaker then i propose you are the one who has no idea what you're talking about.

I always had respect for you polo but that comment has revoked all that.



I give you constructive criticism and you call me an idiot. Azzer has spent 31 rounds balancing each and every unit, wholesale changes are not necessary just the odd modification.

 

[JJB]

I dont agree with this, bunkers are never "easy" to kill i will admit that (well without taking some losses)
but they are not too hard, you say they are powerful if played by a gd player but so is any route if u get the ratios right

I bet you would say that, I don't tho, after trying to kill you with mass pa-cw.

trying?? im fairly sure u nearly zeroed me and took 2.5k land

[close] 58,161,822 allied Cybernetic Warrior attacked, killing 7,533,954 hostile staff.

That's on 50% sentries, 50% bunkers. 7.5m of both survived. I do think that such a ratio is a bit exagerated on the survivability, on the other hand sentries do cost 280k(?) so perhaps such a cost warrants this survivability.

and hobbe i had 50mil ninjas

 

[Polo]

-snip-

I find it hard to take your post seriously when you obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

What an intelligent post polo.

Unintelligent posts get unintelligent replies.

Read what i've written and think about your changes and then come back with a proper answer not your bullshit "cba to think of a real retort so I'll just say your an idiot".

If you can't see that removing extremists health damage and increasing fanatics initiative actually makes them weaker then i propose you are the one who has no idea what you're talking about.

I will reply to this in my "proper answer"/"intelligent post" below.

I always had respect for you polo but that comment has revoked all that.

:'(

I give you constructive criticism and you call me an idiot. Azzer has spent 31 rounds balancing each and every unit, wholesale changes are not necessary just the odd modification.

Azzer has not spent 31 rounds balancing every unit. Most people will agree that Azzer doesn't always make sensible/the best changes when it comes to balancing. He also often asks the more experienced/intelligent players who actually know what they're talking about for feedback. More significant chanegs are needed if Azzer wants to keep players interested. I bored so bored of seeing routes being played in exactly the same way round in, round out - as are many other players.

Now, my "proper" reply:

[09:30] <antisashes> polo's suggestions don't work :S
[09:30] <antisashes> he's made the extremists route weaker overall

No, no I didn't. Moronic point #1.

[09:31] <antisashes> killed the whole point of poms

The whole point of Poms is to be ridiculously overpowered? Right... Moronic point #2.

[09:34] <antisashes> yeh but extremists won't kill anything

They won't? You do realise 1 star HD is not equal to 0 HD? Moronic point #3.

[09:34] <antisashes> they need the two stars of helth to make them worth it

No. I've buffed their AD a lot to make the route much more efficient against killing armour. 2 HD stars aren't needed because otherwise they'd be too overpowered. Moronic point #4.

[09:34] <antisashes> because fanatics fire relativly late for that route

No they don't. Moronic point #5.

[09:36] <FFX> aye
[09:38] <FFX> mind you at last tick
[09:38] <FFX> they'll be bloody strong
[09:38] <FFX> like bunker/sentry styles?
[09:40] <antisashes> naw
[09:40] <antisashes> even if you last tick will die to secret agents before they fire
[09:40] <antisashes> as under his changes sa's would fire before

Something that can kill Extremists and Fanatics fires before Fanatics? Anyone would have thought I'd suggested that on purpose. :roll: The route will be a lot stronger with these suggestions than it currently is. However, they shouldn't just be able to kill everything at close. In fact, making them fire after Vampires might help the balance even more. Moronic point #6.

[09:39] <antisashes> strikers are not that strong either they have their weaknesses like every other route
[09:39] <antisashes> they are expensive fire late and are not very good at killing flak

Strikers are that strong. With Marines, they're effectively impossible to kill. I played them as a psolo (before the latest buff to Marines) and nobody could kill me. Not RPGs, not other Strikers, not Spec Ops, not a combination of those 3. Strikers are one of the earliest firing units and of course they're expensive, their stats warrant a high price. Sure, they're not great against flak - but that doesn't help when you're trying to kill a Striker player. Moronic point #7.

[09:41] <antisashes> and if you halve the stats of bunkers you can say goodbye to anyone who wants to play but doesn't have the time
[09:42] <antisashes> its the only solo route that can compete at the higher echelons without insane activity

It is not the only solo route that can compete at the higher level. Maybe if you're **** at the game - but any decent player can play at the top with other routes. Halving their stats and cost means you halve the effectiveness of Ninja flak - which is definitely needed. I'll just point you in the direction of round 26 if you think they're not overpowered. Moronic point #8.

[09:45] <antisashes> And the whole point of the fantasy route is that nothing fires all ticks
[09:45] <antisashes> you have to know what you're doing and get propper route setups
[09:46] <antisashes> the sorc route in the right hands is quite a nice route
[09:46] <antisashes> its only real enemy is vamps
[09:54] <antisashes> at the end of the day though if it ain't broke don't fix it

That is not the whole point of Fantasy - where the hell did you get that from? Fantasy is broken, any decent player can tell you that. Moronic point #9.

Cut fanatics initiative to fire just after extremists, and cut rebels cost so its a lethal flak for the 2 range ticks

Just no.

Theifs route needs some sort of lethal flak to replace arsonists, maybe a marine lite would be a nice addition

It's called a Heavy Thug. Thief isn't supposed to be a LET route - hence the addition of a NLT.

 

[Polo]

Im not too sure about the changes to puppets though. The puppets are a little better with lower init and eta, but by making steel walls more expensive and weaker, you just make it easier for the puppet to lose what they have bribed. Im not sure this is worth it

I actually didn't mean to change Puppet's ETA from 5 to 4, it was Steel Walls that should be ETA 4 with Puppets still at ETA 5. I've changed my post now. Steel Walls will be mobile with my change - making them much more useful. Their cost/stats needed to be changed to compensate this otherwise the unit would be absolutely immense (maybe you don't realise how much armour they have now?). They're still very good flak for Puppets.

...Bunkers & Strikers...

See my previous post.

 

[antisback]

I cant really be arsed to argue with you polo because it's clearly pointless - i will make but one point

Extremists route's main weakness is that they are only effective on one tick they do not need a unit weakness aswell.

[font=0.1] *o and i've played strikers route alot i have a very defensive setup when i play them and if you get attacked by a similarly sized Rpg's or mass assasins player you will lose the battle quite horribly*[/font]

Last post by me, i tried to give you feedback but you're clearly not interested, no doubt you do that funky thing where you quote each individual paragraph and call me a moron in your comment underneath each *big thumbs up*. How about we implement all your ideas but we have to donate 5 pounds to you to use them

/me succumbs to the all-knowing awesomeness that is polo

 

[tobapopalos]

*o and i've played strikers route alot i have a very defensive setup when i play them and if you get attacked by a similarly sized Rpg's or mass assasins player you will lose the battle quite horribly*

You're obviously not playing it very well.

 

[Alcibiades]

And the truth is outed after Alcibiades applies merciless pressure to antisback!

[17:49:13] <antisback> alright maybe strikers is a tad overpowered but it's my fav route

 

[Ram]

I give you constructive criticism and you call me an idiot. Azzer has spent 31 rounds balancing each and every unit, wholesale changes are not necessary just the odd modification.

Most of the units/routes haven't been around for 28 rounds.
Was only 3 routes in round 5?

 

[timthetyrant]

didnt we learn anything from the great antinoobkiller? He found that bunkers were the best route around, and he proved it to us by being number 1 solo, without absolutely zero friends (obviously), he proved that all the other routes were just plain redundant atm because even the largest alliance were scared of him. SO SAYETH THE ALMIGHTY ANTINOOBKILLER!

obviously we need to change some things if all the other routes were proved redundant

 

[Turnip2k]

On a side note, for the good of the game, I suggest Azzer seriously consider at least some of these suggestions (mainly the ones whereby currently USELESS routes are made useful again). Don't be afraid of making one large jump in terms of changes this round, obviously the current methodology of your roundly alterations (bit by bit) isn't keeping the playerbase here, so time for a change no?

We need some change to the game, pretty major change, and this sort of thing may bring back some originality and interest for older players.

 

[DarkSider]

Don't be afraid of making one large jump in terms of changes

100% up for this one. I did tell Azz on a few occasions the game would be more interesting (for me at least) if we had lots of changes between rounds but he is very keen on balance
Personally i think the fresh feel and new tactics that would need to be thought before round starts and applied during the round would be much more appealing than finding the perfect combination for all units and leaving the game like that. But ofc that would mostly apply for the older players who got bored of same game, new players would appreciate a solid balance.
Best way imo would be more changes just for the sake of changes while also keeping the routes balanced.

 

[Garrett]

haven't read anything in the thread other than skimming route names and seeing harrier route.

make emps better by leaving their damage as a normal type so that it strips armour for the harriers.

p.s. you can further this impact of specializing the route by dropping paratrooper all together, reducing the emp cost by 3k (instead of adding armour or health as they are teh paper) and make the route start to have purpose.

p.p.s. rangers are asking to be a little juiced in some way.

 

[Azzer]

As a forewarning, I intend to be doing some work on much of Polo's efforts - taking in to consideration the replies to this thread, and my own experience/knowledge of the routes and units actual stats of course (which always affects how routes get balanced a bit differently to user's interpretation, as should be expected).... and for them to go "live" during the week break next week.

So take a good look through Polo's stuff, and the replies, and post any information/suggestions/opinions yourself if you've not done already... and take it all in to consideration ready for next round.

In light of me being unable to get the new "fairness calc" in time for next round, I figure some unit and route changes can at least spring some interest in the mean-time

 

[f0xx]

Interesting.

 

[Max]

I suggest to improve nanobots perhaps increasing the armour damage by just a touch As can be seen in another thread, they have a good conversion rate but compared to PAs don't seem to kill enough and aren't as attractive an option.

I like a lot of Polo's changes I look forward to hearing more in the week off!

 

[n0c0ntr0l]

Got a PW atm. And I'm playing with extremists. One thing really springs to mind. The price of Rebels. It NEEDS to go down. Too expensive for just stunning, bring it down to roughly 40k-45k. They don't kill so it's not like that is a vast overpowering.