A dedicated flak unit

[callum828]

Flakking is obviously a crucial part of the game, you can't succeed without it. yet it always seemed odd to me that the main unit used to flak are gardeners. Wouldn't it make sense to have a unit purely to flak with? We all know that gardeners are used to flak but for a new player, it seems to me that sending your resource units (an RTS equivalent would be say, the worker/villager units) into battle is confusing. I remember when I started I never understood flakking and I'm sure many new players have no idea about it (having been attacked by hippies/geos many a time before).

I haven't tried to new walkthrough, so if that includes how to flak then fair enough. But how many players are going to work out that you are supposed to send gardeners with geo-theives on their own? Seeing as we are trying to attract lots of new players, it seems inexcusable that something as basic as attacking is done counter-intuitively. I would wager to bet that a significant amount of fresh players quit because their attacks amount to nothing, due to them not understanding flakking.

It would be pretty simple to implement. Have a unit called 'Flak' (or possibly 'Human Shield') with * health and * armour classed as INN. They could cost £2000 and be available right from the start. Their description could state how they are used to take bullets for the more valuable geo-thieves.

I feel this would make a lot more sense than sending your own gardeners towards your enemy (to garden their fields maybe?)

What does everyone think?

 

[Dark_Angel]

I don't think we need a dedicated flakking unit though I can see what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense.

The tutorial is probably the best way of addressing this, however there is documentation regarding flakking.

The thing is a lot of units have a lot of different uses, its one of the great things about Bushtarion. And if you can be told that "Gardeners can be used to flak, and well" you're making the need for a dedicated unit redundant, and saving yourself the expense of having two unit types (there are more..) that do precisely the same thing

 

[callum828]

I don't think we need a dedicated flakking unit though I can see what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense.

The tutorial is probably the best way of addressing this, however there is documentation regarding flakking.

The thing is a lot of units have a lot of different uses, its one of the great things about Bushtarion. And if you can be told that "Gardeners can be used to flak, and well" you're making the need for a dedicated unit redundant, and saving yourself the expense of having two unit types (there are more..) that do precisely the same thing

Then at least amend the gardener description. It's obvious that not everyone reads the 'documentation' on flakking.

Personally I don't think the novelty of using gardeners as troops justifies the newbies lost to confusion.

 

[TheNamelessWonder]

I agree entirely with callum, good post. I remember back in my noob days (and my noob factor was quite high), I naturally assumed gardeners only existed to plant. So I'd go out on attack, sending everything except gards and harvs, and I'd absolutely kill my enemy, but much to my confusion all my geos would be dead every time

 

[DarkSider]

It probably is more simple the way it is now and let the newbies read the flaking part in the wiki than to have 2 different INN, figure out how much more gardeners should plant, what role they play in attacks if the other unit is to be used instead etc.

 

[Steve_God]

Definately something that would be worthwhile including in the tutorial

 

[timtadams]

Ya, agreed, tutorial is the best way to go.

Maybe not go into detail, but a quick mention that gardeners are crucial to your attacks, and then provide a link to the article.

 

[TheNamelessWonder]

Even just put a line in the Gardener unit description saying something like "Given how cheap these poor farmers are, they could be used as human shields to protect something more valuable..."

 

[Alcibiades]

I don't think we need yet another flak unit. Even as a dedicated unit, but there should be mention somewhere in the tutorial about how flakking works. I think there used to be mention of flakking in the old manual, and probably is buried somewhere in the new wiki. But let's be honest, *most* people don't read the whole thing and wouldn't bother to read about flakking because it doesn't seem to be hugely relevant right off the bat.

 

[pinpower]

Yeah i think the best bet would be to add a step in the tutorial (or maybe link it to the current step in which you send a mob out) to explain.

I think it would be better to add the step in later on, possibly even as the last step (after the current one) in which it has the player send an attack on a designated ID. Maybe make it so the player goes through a full attack, with the designated ID automatically allowing ~5 acres to be stolen or something. The BR could be designed to be the same each time, regardless of who sends when etc. Basically just to show people the 3 Battle ticks and what its like to steal land.

 

[f0xx]

Callum makes a very valid point. Back in the days when I was sending my first attacks, I was sending geos + lets. No INN flak and then I was wondering why ain't I stealing anything even after I kill all the **** the enemy has. I was thinking that I was not sending enough gardeners...

It was Loser I believe who first told me that I need to use INN flak.

But yeah, I agree with Callum, although I don't think a dadicated flak unit would be the best way to solve the problem. I think that flakking (with a link to the explenation) should be mentioned somewhere in the tutorial as well.

 

[pinpower]

I didnt send a single gardener out on attacks with me for my first 1.5 rounds. And then i'd just send very small amounts, it was Silence who properly taught me how to flak in the end...

I think it was him anyway

 

[timtadams]

Haha, noobs

I flakked everything my first round, to great success
But i did have friends to explain the flakking part, and plus, i read it in the manual i beleive

 

[harriergirl]

Same goes for LET flakking as far as that's concerned, even after I learned I needed gards to steal, I still didn't understand LET flakking, I believe it was Nightmare who first explained it to me ..... could be wrong.

But, we don't need a dedicated unit, because the game has all kinds of INN to use as flak, gards, harvs, geos, seedies, wheelies, stealth whatevers...... if you want extra armoured flak you go for the tractors ( I once bought 5 m combines to land on a bunker player ) *layered flak is gooood mmmmkay*

 

[callum828]

Same goes for LET flakking as far as that's concerned, even after I learned I needed gards to steal, I still didn't understand LET flakking, I believe it was Nightmare who first explained it to me ..... could be wrong.

But, we don't need a dedicated unit, because the game has all kinds of INN to use as flak, gards, harvs, geos, seedies, wheelies, stealth whatevers...... if you want extra armoured flak you go for the tractors ( I once bought 5 m combines to land on a bunker player ) *layered flak is gooood mmmmkay*

You use seed thieves as flak? The only unit used significantly is the gardener. Harvesters are more expensive, wheelies are just geos for the first few days of the round, seed thieves need flakking themselves, and stealth thieves are for stealth attacks, not to flak cheaper geos!

That's a terrible reason not to have a dedicated unit. Having a dedicated flak unit makes more sense than having wheelies, which are promptly replaced later in the round.

Then again, I guess people being reactionary is inevitable. I remember when the journal was suggested and people were moaning that notepad worked just as well lol.

At the very least, gardeners description needs to be amended. I like what a poster said earlier 'they're so cheap, they could even be used as a shield for more expensive units...'

 

[pinpower]

Having a few different types of INN units in a mob (including stuff like seed thieves/wheelies/harvies etc) can work wonders. And as you often have a couple of mil seed thieves but maybe only a few hundred k geos they can add an extra layer of flak to your geos nicely!

 

[Garrett]

Same goes for LET flakking as far as that's concerned, even after I learned I needed gards to steal, I still didn't understand LET flakking, I believe it was Nightmare who first explained it to me ..... could be wrong.

But, we don't need a dedicated unit, because the game has all kinds of INN to use as flak, gards, harvs, geos, seedies, wheelies, stealth whatevers...... if you want extra armoured flak you go for the tractors ( I once bought 5 m combines to land on a bunker player ) *layered flak is gooood mmmmkay*

You use seed thieves as flak? The only unit used significantly is the gardener. Harvesters are more expensive, wheelies are just geos for the first few days of the round, seed thieves need flakking themselves, and stealth thieves are for stealth attacks, not to flak cheaper geos!

That's a terrible reason not to have a dedicated unit. Having a dedicated flak unit makes more sense than having wheelies, which are promptly replaced later in the round.

Then again, I guess people being reactionary is inevitable. I remember when the journal was suggested and people were moaning that notepad worked just as well lol.

At the very least, gardeners description needs to be amended. I like what a poster said earlier 'they're so cheap, they could even be used as a shield for more expensive units...'

HAI! I'm a bushtarion player. As a standard bushtarion I have access to thus:

Gardeners, Harvesters, Generic production stealer, wheels, geos

but wait there's more

Tractors, Combines.

I have 6 units other than geos in which to use flak. I don't use any of the production stealers, but with tractors and combines being more effective than gards/harvs... keep the tractors and combines home and layer gardeners/harvesters (price difference for a reason. their combat stats aren't the same)

I also can buy tractors en masse and get past even the nuttiest of bunker/sgt, pom/news van players.


As certain routes, I have access to even more INN.

Thief route Arsonist
SO's all have stealth harvesters.
SO's but puppets have access to chem sprayers
robos have SD's which aren't inn but can flak sgts and 'all' firing units quite nicely.
robo shield has cyborg gardeners

on and on we go... so how much INN does one need really? What price should it be? You claim harvesters are more expensive... only 400 per unit... so anything costing the same would be rated the same as gardeners. so you simply have more gardeners.

if you want it cheaper then it will be weaker and it would be flakking your gardeners which makes no sense.


Or is your issue that we simply don't have a unit called 'Flak'? cyborg gardeners and stealth harvesters are harder to kill than normal 'flak', gardeners as it were, they are also more expensive. so you use gardeners en masse then just a few million of cyborgs or stealth harvesters or if another route something else like harvesters! (use more than a few million tho but you won't need equal amounts)

I'm not against expanding units and their uses. Just the dedicated unit for flak that you seem to want needs to be really tough, yet really cheap. That's not balance.

The Suggestions OverSeer has spoken.

 

[tobapopalos]

Same goes for LET flakking as far as that's concerned, even after I learned I needed gards to steal, I still didn't understand LET flakking, I believe it was Nightmare who first explained it to me ..... could be wrong.

But, we don't need a dedicated unit, because the game has all kinds of INN to use as flak, gards, harvs, geos, seedies, wheelies, stealth whatevers...... if you want extra armoured flak you go for the tractors ( I once bought 5 m combines to land on a bunker player ) *layered flak is gooood mmmmkay*

You use seed thieves as flak? The only unit used significantly is the gardener. Harvesters are more expensive, wheelies are just geos for the first few days of the round, seed thieves need flakking themselves, and stealth thieves are for stealth attacks, not to flak cheaper geos!

That's a terrible reason not to have a dedicated unit. Having a dedicated flak unit makes more sense than having wheelies, which are promptly replaced later in the round.

Then again, I guess people being reactionary is inevitable. I remember when the journal was suggested and people were moaning that notepad worked just as well lol.

At the very least, gardeners description needs to be amended. I like what a poster said earlier 'they're so cheap, they could even be used as a shield for more expensive units...'

As Tana has already said, it's called LAYERED FLAK. You don't send just pure seed thieves. You send a small amount of seed thieves along with your gards, harvs, geos, wheels, etc. and it helps your geos get through. I have often used wheels as an extra layer of flak.

The idea of adding in a "dedicated flak unit" strikes me as being utterly daft. There are plenty of dedicated flak units out there already. Anything with an INN classing can be used as flak. Just because you personally haven't noticed, it doesn't mean they aren't there.

The only idea which I can see here having any future is that of a step in the tutorial teaching new players how to flak.

 

[harriergirl]

The only idea which I can see here having any future is that of a step in the tutorial teaching new players how to flak.

hehe ^^ I agree with tobs.

And thanks all for explaining, glad I kept reading before I responded to his initial response =P

 

[callum828]

I'm not against expanding units and their uses. Just the dedicated unit for flak that you seem to want needs to be really tough, yet really cheap. That's not balance.

The Suggestions OverSeer has spoken.

You completely misunderstand me.
I'm not talking about a new unit to be stronger than gardeners, just more logical. The problem is not that gardeners or the other units are inadequate as flak, just that noobies don't understand that they should be used as flak. It's very counter-intuitive. And I'm sure that it has contributed to many new players leaving because their attacks never come to anything. I think its inexcusable to sit on our hands and reject any change just because it's a change when the player-base is the lowest it has ever been. We need significant change if we're going to actually save the game. Being reactionary is the problem here.