Wave Bottomfeeding?

tyedyegoddess

Weeder
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
24
How silly is that? I'm getting waved by people 300% my range. Waved. More than one coming in at a time. I'm not even in a top ten ally and am in fact the top member of mine with less than 6k acres..

So why is this the second time one of their members has sent to att (though the first time they recalled when def from two ants compared to him sent def)? Are you seriously telling me there's not a single person in 9 alliances within the top ten with more land and less guys than me? I guarantee it, those are the people my alliance goes after....

Then again, we're not chickens, cowards, yellow-bellies, whatever you want to call it.

These people are seriously ruining the game. At least 3 or 4 of the people in my ally have spent real-world cash this round, and each one of those refuses to do it next round refuses to do it until there's something to deter crap like this. Some want to drop from the game. A couple of us have been checking out other top ten games that may not be as fun but at least won't condone this kind of stupidity. Nobody needs to attack someone that tiny, especially when there are that many targets closer in their range. Do a search for people 40% your range and up with at least 6k land. I'm not on that list.

You know, I almost hope the game goes down and cowards like this who only attack people they get a +2 to get blamed. Some people should've been smacked by their mamas more, or taken fishing by their dads. Maybe then they'd have some common decency, or at least testosterone. Where I come from, men want to attack the biggest guy they can. And I'm cooler than I thought if I'm the biggest they can do, with 1/5th the staff and 1/6th the land. Take off the dress, put on your big boy britches like the toddler in my house can do, and end this tea party.

Sorry, but this is a gripes forum, and this is a major gripe.
 

Illumination

Head Gardener
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
442
I agree. I think that 30% is too low to be able to attack. Im not sure that 40% should be modded by 2 though. Maybe 35% modded 2 and 40% modded 1 with 45% being the first unmodded tier. 35 and 45 are ugly numbers though:p
 

f0xx

Landscape Designer
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Dec 18, 2007
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Alright, put yourself in his sittation.

You are 10 bln score. You can reach down to someone with 3 bln score, or you can choose to attack someone in a top alliance? Alone. Which would you choose?
 

timtadams

Landscape Designer
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Sep 9, 2008
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Australia
I understand the frustration. But like he said f0xx, they arent even in top ten alliance, let alone a top one.

In fact i agree with Illuminations idea
 

tobapopalos

Hydroponics Developer
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Dec 14, 2007
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Manchester
snippety snip


This is a pretty cliched response to a post like this but I'm going to do it anyway. I'll even put it in bold and underline it to make it clearer.

THIS IS A WAR GAME

People are going to be *******s. People are going to go for the easy hits rather than take on someone difficult (especially if they care about their score). People are going to attack those who cannot harm them, because they don't like losing score on attacks.

I agree that it is a poor way of playing a game. Cowardliness when you have nothing real to lose seems daft to me. But also, there have to be many different ways to play the game or people will get bored very quickly. I play to kill people. It's what I find fun. But other people get their fun in different ways, and to punish them for that isn't really fair. So as much as it annoys me to see people playing in what I consider a cowardly fashion, I also know that it's all part of the game. It happens.

So as the saying goes: get over it.
 

Alcibiades

Plant Geneticist
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Dec 13, 2007
Messages
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Canada
I can sympathize with getting bashed by players a whole bunch bigger than you. I've suffered through more than my fair share throughout the course of my time here and it does suck; but you have to suffer through it. It's simply the nature of this game.

As toby pointed out it *is* a wargame, and people will almost always go for the easiest hit/land/kills.

Do you think that the people who're 300% of you aren't getting hit by players who are 300% of them? I'm certainly one of those people who takes a stab at lower alliances every now and again (more often than not tbh) and in this round, we almost daily get incoming from TBA and they are, for all intents and purposes, considerably larger than we are. Although some of them are just mass flak, they have an absolute ton of LETs.

My advice is to do your best to kill what you can, make your land *as expensive* as possible and people will eventually look elsewhere. You won't ever get rid of all your attackers but that really is the nature of the game. If you don't want to be hit, then i'm afraid this game might really not be for you.

To top it off, *many* of the people who post this kind of gripe don't really examine their own actions too carefully for fear of what they might see. While i can't speak for you, i can say that it's highly likely people like you and in your general score level have certainly hit/waved/massed people lower than you and probably don't find anything wrong with that. Now you might be the exception to the rule, but i'm skeptical.

Either way, it's your gripe and feel free to do so; but just couldn't resist tossing my own 2 cents in.
 

Garrett

Landscape Designer
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Dec 14, 2007
Messages
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heh, am I the only one who remembers that the minimum used to be 20%??? :D hell I remember arguing to get it up to 30%. ahh... 20% attacking.. those were the days
 

Martin

Garden Designer
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heh, am I the only one who remembers that the minimum used to be 20%??? :D hell I remember arguing to get it up to 30%. ahh... 20% attacking.. those were the days


When I started it was 17.5% I think ;D
 

tyedyegoddess

Weeder
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
24
I get that it's a war game, but I do seek out the targets 60% my range. 'Cause in a war game, you send to get kills.

I know it's part of the game. I've played about two years (however many rounds it's been), and it's never been this bad.

I have less than 6k land (less than 5k now), and it's defended with 75m Let's, the majority of which are my p-unit. Still, when someone sends 500m at me and three ticks later another 500m is coming in, I send away. My whole alliance online can't match up past 800 total, including my guys, and I had one other member online.

Yeah, I could have fought... and died...


My problem's just that this is the worst I've ever seen it. I've been hit in the past by someone too big for me, and I either sent away or stayed and fought. But I personally hate attacking anyone lower than 35%. Frankly, I prefer to use war tactics, not just push a button and win. I'll catch you when you're not home, or get you when you're zeroed, but I won't go too low. Hate the + to eta, too. But the cowards just won't give up. I can't be the biggest inbetween us unless all 87 other people above me and below them are their alliance or part of the block.

I don't want to score queen. I like fights. I go out and attack every day. When someone in my alliance has inc, I send all-out defense. We daily organize masses. I regularly take on people bigger than me in these, because they need the defense tied up from the big guys, so I send at them. I just don't get why other people have to be such pansies.
 

Dark_Angel

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THIS IS A WAR GAME

QFT.

Happens to everyone, I'm afraid. IRC uptake is on the up with the arrival of age 5, communication is getting better in even "worse" alliances. This has facilitated better planning, and with it, more waving.

If your current alliance isn't able to protect you from said waving, or handle it effectively, perhaps seek another?

We're all guilty of waving at some point. Its an effective way to land where land is protected too well to land alone.

I don't see how its any worse at the bottom than it is at the top. Just on a different scale, is all.
 

Alcibiades

Plant Geneticist
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Canada
THIS IS A WAR GAME

QFT.

Happens to everyone, I'm afraid. IRC uptake is on the up with the arrival of age 5, communication is getting better in even "worse" alliances. This has facilitated better planning, and with it, more waving.

If your current alliance isn't able to protect you from said waving, or handle it effectively, perhaps seek another?

We're all guilty of waving at some point. Its an effective way to land where land is protected too well to land alone.

I don't see how its any worse at the bottom than it is at the top. Just on a different scale, is all.


Put more succinctly than in my post, but i agree 100%. People will go for the easiest land they can find using the easiest tactics they can. I'm afraid that's human nature and goodluck changing that :p
 

Garrett

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Dec 14, 2007
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I agree. Easy Land is My Land. C'mere Poland I annex you! I am your new overlord now!

Overlord.gif
 

Azzer

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1,215
heh, am I the only one who remembers that the minimum used to be 20%??? :D hell I remember arguing to get it up to 30%. ahh... 20% attacking.. those were the days

Used to be 10% very originally :D
 

tyedyegoddess

Weeder
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
24
LOL I'm all about the easy land... and we mass and wave all the time. No issue with that, no issue with getting attacked. I expect it. Just wish our alliance could go one day without being hit by at least one person 300% our range or higher. Sometimes they recall when defense comes, but srsly, we're little bitty ants. We have some of the lowest numbers in land you can find.

I guess I just don't get the "hit the smallest you can" tactic. Lol. I play a war game, which means I like a good challenge.
 

lavadog

Head Gardener
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
322
Most of them recall when def comes. If I would take a look at my alli, I'd say that 85% of the time the attacker recalls if there's any def (which I hate, because I like big fights, even if that means taking big hits :p).

Apparently people are very afraid when they see big numbers :p

Only thing you can do is as toby suggested. Make the land as expensive as possible. Today I def-ed an alli mate of mine against a way bigger force. He was zeroed first tick and I could only make it to the middle tick. On those two ticks I did over a trill damage (took four hundred-ish bill) but they still stole approx 900 land. In my eyes that was a succesful def, since the land is easy to regain but at least you've been a pain in the ass of the attacker and cost them a lot of troops in the process.
 

tyedyegoddess

Weeder
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
24
Yeah, I try to make it as much of a pain in the wazoo as I can. For less than 5k land, somewhere 75-85m let's is pretty big, lol. I try to just get bigger than their tiny targets so I'm not as pretty to them. It's just sad that people are so obsessed with attacking at +2eta lol.

One admitted she knows Azzer and yet in in TBA and is bottom feeding... the things Azzer said are ruining the game, and that us cooks in USA work our best to fight against. I don't know, just seemed ironic to me, if someone who knew me was taking actions against what I make my living on, I'd be pissed.

I'm glad the possible range has moved up. I think it's where it belongs and doesn't need to change. I think the attitude of the people needs to change, but there's no patch for social issues. Changing those rules of the game would make it less fun for those who don't abuse it now. I get why this is so disturbing to him.
 

Illumination

Head Gardener
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
442
I attack at the bottom (unless its an alliance attack where defense would be pulled), but my bottom is usually 40-55% just because Im too lazy to wait the extra ticks. I can usually find fairly harmless people in that range. I still think the minimum could go up to 35%, but its just an opinion and not a gripe:) My search will always be set at whatever is the minimum for an eta 5 attack (minus those bots at round's start!).
 

timthetyrant

Head Gardener
Joined
Sep 30, 2008
Messages
388
i know how you feel. the only reason i attack low is for conversions (scrap bots) and seed thieving which is usually against a harmless army, so i send my own harmless army. all of my killing has been in defense and around 90+% my score for the bounty hunting, i've given up going for land since it makes me more of a target, but i would like to point out i do send 10t geos thieves flacked by 200t gardnrs just to get bounty (which is probably sumthn azzer needs to think about with the current bounty hunting, ie sending tiny amoutns of innocents, just to get that mix to achieve bounty)

and i can tell the top are getting desperate when i see massive mobs attacking me for a split of 3000 acres.
 

Steve_God

Official Helper
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Dec 15, 2007
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Cheshire, England
Saw this 'article' about bottom-feeding on the Casual Collective forums - thought I'd post it here with it being very relevant :)

Bottom feeding and time over skill.I have been playing massively multiplayer online real time strategy games (MMORTS) for roughly a decade now. In that time I have seen the most fundamental aspect of the games are how these two issues, bottom feeding and time over skill, are treated. The two are intrinsically interlinked, and I have seen very poor games which got these two things right be successful, while far better games which ignored these issues failed.
Bottom feeding.
For those who haven’t had much exposure to this genre, bottom feeding is essentially picking on the weak. When you have a competitive environment whereby you gain a benefit out of attacking successfully, players are naturally drawn to attacking the weak and vulnerable.
This leads game developers to have to make a choice between protecting the weak, and empowering the strong. When I first started these games I was just finishing my degree and I saw a striking resemblance between this relationship and that of capitalistic free markets against governmental control.
Without regulation and controls players usually benefit from exponential growth, while with too many hindrances the incentive to play for many is reduced. The most enjoyable MMORTS game I have played (and I have played a significant proportion of them) was a game called Dystopia. I would be astonished if a single person on the collective has heard of this game much less played it.
“A paradise in which the weak would be slain rather than protected. A paradise in which the strong were not penalized for their success. A truly dystopian paradise.”
I’m sure you can guess how this game dealt with the bottom feeding issue. It encouraged it. The effect of having nothing in place to hinder the growth of the strong turned the game into a sprint. It was a fight to get an advantage, and if you knew what you were doing once you had that advantage it was game over for everyone else.

This made the game exceptionally addictive. It also made the game very un-casual. Players would go through inordinate lengths in order to get that advantage. Waking up at times such as 3 am, so as to be online at critical times was simply the tip of the iceberg that many people put themselves through in order to compete. No sacrifice was too big to become the strongest, while those unable or unwilling became the weak which were slain.

Throughout the late 90’s and early years of this decade the game went through great efforts to try and encourage people to join this highly addictive game. Yet its player base gradually dwindled. First time players would be discouraged by the ease with which they were killed off, as were the less skilled players. As each layer of the player base left the problem accentuated itself; resulting in increasingly skilled individuals becoming the recipients of bottom feeding. Further dooming any such game which is new player unfriendly is the fact that such games are predominately played by students. They are a loyal die hard group, but there is one inescapable fact, they will one day move on, grow up and get jobs. Without a constant stream of new players therefore the game can only face a slow and painful death.

One intriguing solution to the bottom feeding issue was taken by a game called amber. In this game instead of letting anyone attack anyone, it had a portal system, where you could only attack other kingdoms to which you had opened a portal. The range of the portal was then set to encourage fair fights.

For a time around the turn of the millennium amber enjoyed great success with a system that simultaneously protected the beginner and allowed the strong to prey on the weak. Over time unfortunately flaws and exploits were found by the user base that let the better and more experienced open portals to weaker less skilled kingdoms. This persistence comes from the fact that this is just what the better players want. They want a fight which while a little challenging has very little chance of defeat, to give them maximum growth.

As this decade has progressed the MMORTS has evolved away from having no physical existence, with no limit to growth size, and no other players being any nearer to you than any other. The popular MMORTS of today such as Travian have a world with a physical relationship between your own territories and those of others nearby. The effects of this on bottom feeding are pronounced.

With a virtual, non existent game world, a single player or group of players could easily control every other user in their game world. There could be systems in place to discourage and make it not worth them wasting their time on the weak and even prevent them attacking those too small, but all threats could be reached, attacked and eliminated. There was one big fish in the pond, and it ate everything else.

Adding geography into game play eliminates this. There is no longer one pond and one big fish, now there are multiple micro systems. Someone else far away could be far more dominant than you, but providing you were the strongest in your locality you gained all the advantages that before were exclusive to the player who sitting at the top.

his enables games such as Travian to have relaxed rules to bottom feeding, letting the strong destroy the weak with impunity as the natural distance between player’s acts as a buffer preventing that one big fish from devouring everything else.

Bottom feeding can be likened to a drug. It increases the games addictiveness and can make users very happy, but too much can completely destroy a game.

Time over skill


One of the defining characteristics of the MMORTS is persistence, meaning that the game continues with or without the player. Obviously there is a massive advantage to the person who can dedicate huge chunks of time into such a game. The early MMORTS games got around this by having all the important aspects of the game take significant amounts of time. Attacking another player would, depending on the game, typically take 6-12 hours for your armies to return, while training of new recruits would take similar lengths of time.

This meant you could effectively compete as long as you were online 2-3 times a day. For some people that is quite a commitment, but for a large number of people that isn’t a particularly difficult commitment. There is still an advantage to being online in the in between times, but it is a negligible one. The increased knowledge of what is going on the whole time leads to an increased awareness which is actually mimicking what the more experienced and skilled player already has.

The evolution of the MMORTS has not been restricted to altering the issue of bottom feeding, and key developments in the modern MMORTS has moved the genre away from a situation with a balance between time and skill.

This development is the ability to create independent structures. In the early games you had a base, which got bigger endlessly without limit. With the introduction of geography came the ability to have multiple bases which could grow either with or without limit. I can still remember my excitement at the opportunities and potential of this development.

The flaw of this however is the user suffers from exponentially growing time requirements. I started playing Travian roughly 4 or 5 years ago and played casually at first learning a few things getting an understanding of the game, and then a new game server was created.

Having got an idea of how the effects of geography were having on the game I decided to wait a week before starting to make sure I wasn’t located around the hardcore gamers who would have signed up on the first day.

I was still effectively a complete beginner but understood the principles by which these games are about, they are a race to get an edge and then you use that edge to push all those around down and prevent their growth. I did a very small amount of cheating sending myself some extra resources from a multi account to give myself that initial tiny advantage, which by having meant my exponential growth curve was ahead of all my immediate rivals and they all quickly became my farms.

By nothing more than investing insane amounts of time to allow myself to attack every one of my neighbours around the clock I had growth that was staggering. Within two weeks I was over a hundred times more powerful than my strongest neighbour and completely controlled an area of 20 by 20 around my home village.

No one else within that area had any possibility to play the game whatsoever. Some were experienced players who understood the game fair better than I did, but my resource advantage over them was so vast that I was gaining more resource than the combined one hundred nearest villages to me.

My area of dominance grew, my number of villages grew, and the number of hours in the day didn’t change. At one point I was at no stage sleeping for more 2 than hours in a day. Of course it didn’t take long for me to burn out and lose interest. I had broken the game and I think after around a month I stopped playing, with my villages already the largest on the server by a large margin and growing at roughly 3 times the speed of anyone else.

This is not to brag about the ability to no life a game, but an example of what happens when the game rewards activity to this extent. Users can gain extraordinary large amounts of power incredibly quickly only for their startlingly brilliant flame to burn out within a short timeframe. Travian game worlds are littered with the decaying ruins of abandoned empires.

Now I can hear you thinking, if the game is so flawed, why is it so popular? The answer is it has the balance of bottom feeding just right. It lets the user have complete and absolute control over all of his neighbours. While it has the potential for the beginner to start in a sleepy quiet corner of the game world filled with out beginners who are content to grow peacefully. I remember reading a quote once that summarised this.

“We don’t want to end the exploitation, we want to become the exploiters”

Very few games allow this to the same extent that Travian does.

The game markets itself very aggressively, the first advert I saw for a MMORTS was for Travian, and I have since seen adverts for it on countless websites, the collective being no exception. It seems to me the makers understand their typical users have a life span of six months to three years. Once they graduate the time requirements can no longer be met, and many in their final years of study will prioritise their studies.

They embrace this, and instead of trying to make the game available for their older members, go out and find the next year’s fresh generation of students. They offer huge game play advantages to those prepared to spend their cash, capitalising on the individuals short term addictions, and tempting those rich graduates to attempt to continue to play.

The question then becomes where does DTC see itself in terms of bottom feeding and the importance of time over skill. Will it be aiming to be a chaotically addictive bottom feeding time sink that has low player loyalty, high player turnover and is a cash cow? Or perhaps it may be a more casual game with protection inbuilt for the lesser skilled at the expense of the dedicated players.

For me the perfect game would have mechanisms that give advantages that stack up over time resulting from good play, but has protection for the beginner so that without advanced strategies they are able to compete to some extent. To involve the investment of a significant yet realistic chunk of time, but that time invested suffers from diminishing returns resulting in it being possible to compete with an individual such as myself who if he so decides could start playing 140 hours a week.The result may not produce the best monetary return, but from a purist view point of gaming excellence it would be a far more successful game than a more profitable yet fundamentally flawed game.
If we take a quick look at the most popular game on this site, minions, despite it being a very different type of game, you can see that it has all those factors which I suggested made the perfect game. Whether by accident or design the levelling system in minions allows a form of bottom feeding, which is restricted so that even if you have 20 levels on your opponents fighting 2v1 will usually end in your own defeat. For me this system represents an important part of the addictiveness of that award winning game.
 

Garrett

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,872
good find, good read. stopped about 3 paragraphs into time over skill, but good nonetheless
 
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